Examination of Witnesses (Questions 152
- 159)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2004
MR MARK
WOOD, MR
CHRIS BATT,
MS LYN
BROWN AND
MR TONY
DURCAN
Chairman: Good morning. Thank you very
much indeed for coming on this inquiry into libraries. I will
call Rosemary McKenna to ask the first questions.
Q152 Rosemary McKenna: Good morning.
We have had evidence from the ACL and yourselves and it would
appear that there is very little difference between the role that
you carry out, the MLA and the ACL. You seem to have a very similar
goal. Do we need both bodies, and why?
Mr Batt: I think it is true in
the past it may not have been completely clear, the differences
between the two organisational bodies. The ACL is a statutory
body that advises the minister; and the MLA has a range of responsibilities
covering not just libraries but museums and archives as well,
but clearly has a key role in developing policy, strategy and
the implementation of programmes for libraries. Over the past
year we have agreed with DCMS that the appropriate mechanism for
ensuring coordination, and that we use the two organisations effectively,
is that the chair of the Advisory Council should be a board member
of MLA, which has worked effectively. With Framework for the
Future—the development plan we are implementing for
DCMS—the steering group for that is ACL as representative
of the professionals and others involved. There is now a much
closer working relationship. We are now working with DCMS to look
at whether it is possible to integrate the activities more closely
so there is, as it were, a single voice giving advice to the minister,
without undermining the statutory responsibilities of the Advisory
Council.
Ms Brown: My view is that the
Advisory Council for Libraries is a sole voice for libraries.
It is a group of people, I believe, who monitor and evaluate the
progress of the MLA and give advice directly to the minister about
the role of libraries and, indeed, the progress around Framework
for the Future. It has different networks available to it
by the nature of those who are sitting around that table. My view
is that the MLA should perhaps have a greater distance and be
a critical friend, both outward facing towards the DCMS and outward
facing towards the library authorities and the library services.
I do see two distinct roles for the ACL and for the MLA.
Mr Durcan: I would agree. Chief
librarians are working with the MLA to implement Framework;
whereas the ACL is checking on how well they do that. I think
it perhaps would be a little inappropriate for the MLA to have
both roles, or for one body to have both roles.
Mr Wood: If I may add one point.
I think all those points are very important, but one also has
to be aware of a multiplicity of bodies advising government. What
we are trying to talk through with DCMS now is the way to achieving
a more coherent approach which prefers the strengths of what the
ACL does now, and keeps the ACL ongoing, but ensures there is
one voice speaking and advising government on a lot of policy.
Ms Brown: My last point would
be that the ACL's role is enshrined in statute and has, therefore,
been a constant and has a value in that constancy.
Q153 Rosemary McKenna: The MLA list
in your evidence an extensive list of initiatives and plans for
the future. There seem to be a multiplicity of initiatives. What
had led up to that rush of activity? Where do you see it going?
Mr Batt: It comes from Framework
for the Future which is DCMS' ten-year vision for the development
of a public library service in England. That laid down a series
of areas for development, three key areas: books, reading and
learning; digital citizenship; and community and civic values—three
vital roles for libraries in the future. We were given the mandate
to develop an implementation plan for the first three years of
that work initially with £3 million, a million pounds each
year; subsequently an additional million has been made available
for this year and next year, so it will be a programme of £5
million in total. As I have said, that engaged the Advisory Council
on Libraries to steer the development of that framework to ensure
we engaged all the professions in other bodies in the process
of doing that, to put together a whole range of activities which
are helping to start the transformational progress for the public
library service. There are a lot of programmes because we have
been able to engage a whole range of partnerships for different
organisations to develop from growing the competences of those
working in libraries, particularly leadership skills, through
all of the work you have heard about—the Reading Agency
which is being funded through the Framework programme—through
work with the Local Government Association and others to try and
identify where the problems are, and what can be done to build
a sustainable future for public libraries.
Q154 Rosemary McKenna: If you could
wave a magic wand what one thing would we do? We have heard about
such a range of provision within authorities, within libraries—some
very, very good, some very modern, some with very new initiatives
and exciting, and some very, very poor. What one thing would bring
those authorities with poor provision up to the level of the best?
Mr Wood: The short answer is always
funding, of course.
Q155 Rosemary McKenna: Funding is
not really the answer. It is how those local authorities make
those decisions?
Mr Wood: Correct.
Q156 Rosemary McKenna: The funding
comes from the Department.
Mr Wood: At the root of some of
the problems of some of the authorities is under-funding or at
least low funding. I think parts of the programmes Chris has just
outlined are all part of a broader programme to try and transform
the way libraries work and the way they serve their communities
and their users. What we have been focusing on quite clearly is
the need to redefine the way libraries work. There is still some
way to go, but we have seen a lot of programmes in the library
world. It is our job to try and set clear strategies and performance
targets and criteria, but it then comes down to working with local
authorities and working with the libraries themselves to see that
implemented. I think clarity on the role of libraries and communities
and what they are supposed to be doing is probably the most important
thing. We are seeing them defined as transforming when you see
these beacon libraries that are really serving their users well
and serving their communities well. Those are the ones one can
set up as a model for the rest of the country: so to see they
all following the beacons, really.
Ms Brown: If I had one thing to
do I would persuade the other departments outside the DCMS of
the value of libraries to the outcomes they want to have. I would
want to talk to the Department of Work and Pensions about what
we do about getting people into employment, helping businesses
and progressing people through employment channels. I would want
to talk to the Home Office about what we are doing around anti-social
behaviour, looking after our young people who might be in difficulties—getting
them to school and that kind of stuff. I would want to talk to
DfES about the kind of value we are adding to education programmes
and learning for all sections of our communities. If I had one
wand it would be to be able to show, demonstrate and have accepted
by all the departments in Whitehall the value we have towards
the outcomes we all jointly share.
Mr Durcan: And to demonstrate
to local government, via central government, that value. It is
quite fortunate because we have two each and they are separate
ones so we get both across. Mine would be about buildings. The
public library building network is in a very poor condition. I
think there is an important point about neutral space in towns,
cities and villages, which is overlooked. In many ways I see the
public library network having the potential to be the public realm
of the future; to offer sheltered, safe public space. We really
need to have creative ways in which to recreate that network.
It was largely created through philanthropy many, many years ago.
What we would like to open the debate about is whether or not
the heritage Lottery funding could be available for library buildings
as well as for other cultural buildings. We have nowhere to turn,
other than to our existing mainline resources and some PFI projects
to invest in the building network, and it sorely needs it. It
is one of those few buildings which anybody can go into free of
charge, for quite extensive hours in some places, and feel safe
and have a positive experience. It is even better than the best
square in a town because it has a roof on the top when it rains.
I think it is very important we acknowledge the value of that
to all communities.
Ms Brown: Sometimes our libraries
are just in the wrong place, and we need to move them and we do
not necessarily have the capital or the opportunity to do so.
Mr Batt: If there is one thing
we would want, that is to see the Government continue to push
hard on what is already happening. In terms of the library standards,
the Framework programme and the People's Network, changes
are taking place. Over the last three years, 80% of the library
authorities in England have increased their opening hours. 70%
of them have increased the number of books they purchase. Each
year there are 40 million hours' of use of the People's Network;
a whole range of activities; 106,000 training activities for people
going in and using ICT. We need to continue those programmes.
I agree completely with what the others have said—there
needs to be significant investment in the building stock; but
we have in place a range of programmes that are already making
a difference.
Q157 Rosemary McKenna: Can I ask
you to comment on Dr Wozniak's review of the People's Network,
which was very critical of the use that people were making of
the internet? I thought that was not appropriate, because everyone
uses the internet in a different way; and it was okay to say if
people were just using it to e-mail or using it at a very surface
level. Is that continuing, or is there a problem with funding
continuation of the People's Network?
Mr Batt: Sustainability is something
we continue to talk to government about. At the moment there has
been no indication that libraries are taking away any of those
services, because they are so significant and such a large part
of what is happening. That is one of the reasons why there are
more visits to libraries now. Dr Wozniak is a lone voice in his
views, and we have had quite a lot of discussions with him in
the past about what he believes they should or should not be used
for. The reality is, of course, that like everything else which
goes on libraries it is a public space but it is there for personal
activity. We would not stand in judgment if someone is e-mailing.
There are many places where it is the only access route for asylum-seekers
to keep in touch with families in other parts of the world; for
people to start to explore using the technology and then moving
on to buy their own computers. There is a whole range of things
going on. We must recognise that, in terms of voting with their
fingers, most of the population think it is really successful.
Ms Brown: Can I agree with what
Chris has said there. I represent one of the poorest communities
in the country and we are really clear, although people say in
questionnaires they have a computer at home, that computer might
not actually work; it might not be plug-in-able; in fact it probably
is not attached to the internet. The greatest divide I can see
within this country, since the divide of literacy, is the divide
of ICT. If our communities do not manage to become comfortable
and confident with ICT then the divide between them and the work
they are going to be able to access is going to become greater
and greater. That is a divide which is going to be very hard to
bridge. I do not care what they are using it for, as long as it
is not against the law, but what I want to see is them using it,
becoming familiar with it and working out why they might actually
want one in their own home which will give greater access to their
children too.
Mr Wood: The People's Network
is the first big transformational programme which has been introduced
into libraries for decades effectively. I think it has been quite
a success in many ways. Apart from providing a service to users
which has brought even more visitors into libraries, it has started
to reshape the way libraries think of themselves and the services
they provide, because it has broadened out their service role,
if you like. Of course, it has a vital service in a different
way and that is, a lot of information (and increasing amounts
of information) is only available online, or in a digital form
or electronic form. That is an increasing trend. That digital
divide will get larger if there are not public spaces available
where people can access information with assistance—and
that is precisely what libraries are doing. Indeed, what we are
seeing with the People's Network is getting people into libraries,
both old and young, teenagers and older people, who would not
normally go into them and they are starting to borrow books as
well. In many ways it has been a force for good. Yes, of course,
there is going to be misuse occasionally but, by and large, libraries
seem to manage the accesses pretty efficiently.
Mr Durcan: That raises an interesting
point about content. With the huge success of the People's Network
what we have not been able to deliver on top of that is the content
for the People's Network. There has been very welcome central
funding through the New Opportunities Fund for digitalisation,
for producing material which we can access through the network;
but it tends to be somewhat piecemeal and looking at specific
areas but perhaps not enough funding to complete those areas.
I think there is a need nationally, working with other partners
such as the British Library, to look at how we best use the resources
we have across the country so everybody in all communities can
access that. That was one of the visions of the People's Network.
Not only was it about connectivity and access, but about the material
being made available. We have not had the opportunity to fully
develop that. Just to pick up an earlier point linked to the very
great importance of access to the People's Network and the internet
being free, many years ago we would run a user education session
in the reference libraries so people could use the Encyclopaedia
Britannica and they could walk in and use it whenever they
wanted; we may no longer have a hardcopy of the Encyclopaedia
Britannica, it is only available on the internet or electronically,
and we do not want to be charging people to access that and we
do want them to have independent use and not always mediated use.
Rosemary McKenna: The Committee has already
expressed concern about that. We will be exploring that with the
LGA later on.
Q158 Derek Wyatt: Good morning. How
many new public libraries are built every year in the United Kingdom?
Mr Batt: I do not have that information
at my fingertips. There are not many new large libraries.
Q159 Derek Wyatt: Ten, 50 or 100?
Mr Batt: No, there are refurbishments
going on, but there are far too few new libraries being built
at the moment.
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