Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 196)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2004
MR MARK
WOOD, MR
CHRIS BATT,
MS LYN
BROWN AND
MR TONY
DURCAN
Q180 Mr Doran: Could we have a list
of these authorities?
Mr Batt: Yes.
Q181 Mr Doran: Secondly, this has
been an issue which has been raised in earlier sessions, and that
is the fact that while your lead department is DCMS, your main
funding comes from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and
obviously there is close involvement with DfES as well. That seems
a little bit skewed. It sometimes strikes us as a little bit odd
that things are handled in that way. Is that something you are
comfortable with, or do you think it is something which could
be improved?
Mr Batt: My view is the important
thing is that departments work together to establish the things
which they share jointly. In the end the provision of public library
services is the responsibility of local authorities to deliver.
Clearly, that goes through the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
The crucial thing is that there is a golden thread that runs through
DCMS, ODPM and DfES to ensure maximum delivery. I am not sure
that it is "which department"; it is how the departments
work together.
Ms Brown: I agree with that. The
LGA's position is that libraries are central to the core of wherever
DCMS is going. They are there to advocate on behalf of libraries
and we think they are in fact doing that role. We would ask that
they outward face more and enable us in libraries to have greater
access to policymakers and others within the Home Office, the
Department of Work and Pensions, DfES and ODPM etc, because we
think we offer something to each of those departments.
Q182 Mr Doran: You feel they are
the strongest advocates for the culture of libraries, if you like?
Ms Brown: Yes.
Q183 Chris Bryant: The vast majority
of people who use the library at any point will mostly be using
their own local library and will not necessarily be searching
for anything particularly recondite or abstruse; but, on occasion,
people may be wanting something that is not available in a local
library because they might be researching something to do with
their family living in another part of the country. Quite often,
they will then find the library in the other part of the country
works on a completely different set of assumptions about how they
store material, about how you have access to it; it might not
be findable; that it is available in another library without physically
going there. Is there room for further cooperation and coordination?
Mr Batt: It already exists. There
is an inter-library lending system across the whole of the country.
Q184 Chris Bryant: But phenomenally
difficult to use—as one who has used it many times?
Mr Durcan: An example, Chairman:
we have a very tiny village library with a reader who specialises
in obscure 16th century witchcraft and we have been sending him
books on our library from the British Library for the last year.
That is one example. In our experience it works extremely well.
Q185 Chris Bryant: That depends on
a cataloguing system, and many different libraries have different
and separate cataloguing systems and sometimes it is very difficult
to find these. I can see Lyn Brown itching to say something.
Ms Brown: I am always itching
to say something and if you knew me better you would know that!
The London Library Development Agency has got something in place
which is What's in London's Library, which effectively
gives every single London library user, and anybody who is not
in London Library, an opportunity to go through the whole catalogue
of what is in London and be able to access for themselves knowledge
of what is where and to ask for their library to be able to get
it. I understand there has been some interest from other authorities
in order to move that out across the country possibly, or regions
of the country. I do think ICT is going to be a great benefit
to us in getting access.
Q186 Chris Bryant: Even down to the
British Library catalogue itself, which is split between before
1950 and after 1950—if an author does most of their stuff
in one half, rather than the other, then they are not in the other—there
still seems an awful lot of tidying-up to be done. It is the kind
of thing which would suit a librarian to do.
Mr Durcan: There is room for improvement.
It is more the collections of some of the individual libraries,
than it is of more historic collections which have not had an
electronic catalogue record created. It is one of those things
about content of the People's Network again. The British Library
itself we seem to find not a problem; but a number of us have
collections which are not terribly accessible and we are working
to try and sort that out. There is lots of room for improvement.
Mr Batt: Can I suggest you ask
a librarian because they will sort out the problem for you.
Chris Bryant: Again, I have to say, not
my experience.
Q187 Chairman: What is wrong with
the duodecimal system?
Mr Durcan: It depends upon which
edition you are using, Chairman.
Chris Bryant: If you are researching
George Lansbury, a lot of the material on George Lansbury is hidden
in boxes in the East End in London which, for a long time, were
never opened and nobody ever knew the stuff was there apart maybe
from Angela Lansbury—but she was more interested in other
investigations.
Chairman: I tried to find a way of interviewing
her by saying I would like to discuss her grandfather with her,
but she did not bite!
Q188 Ms Shipley: The Audit Commission
in response to my questioning of them—and I thought the
Audit Commission, when they came in front of us, were very impressive—mentioned
something which has been recorded here by the Clerk, so I know
it is accurate: "The Audit Commission mentioned in evidence
to us that the decision was taken by central government to devolve
money to schools to buy back school library services. We were
told that there is a very uneven pattern of identified expenditure
on school library services in section 52 statements [which you
will be aware] (which is the spending return by a local authority
on education) and that schools are not buying back into school
library services". Can you provide any comment on this and
evidence as to how many local authorities are not devolving money,
and can you identify them?
Mr Batt: I cannot answer the question
about specific ones. I am sure the Audit Commission will be able
to provide that information to you. It is a concern we have, that
the provision of access to a library service to support schools
is not even across the country. Part of Framework for the Future
is looking at ways of raising that. Clearly, to the extent that
those responsibilities are devolved to head teachers to deal with,
and with education authorities, we cannot intervene directly.
Anything that this committee can do to support the need for more
intervention would be helpful.
Q189 Ms Shipley: What have you done
if you think it is important?
Mr Batt: Something the LGA has
done is to look at the extension of public libraries linking with
schools.
Q190 Ms Shipley: No, I am talking
specifically about this pot of money which is not being appropriately
spent. What have you done about it? You have identified it, so
what have you done? It is great to identify it but it is useless
if you do not do anything.
Mr Durcan: My understanding is
the money has been devolved but not all schools are choosing to
buy into the school library service.
Q191 Ms Shipley: What have you done
about that?
Ms Brown: The schools have chosen
to spend money—-
Q192 Ms Shipley: I have just read
that. What I am asking you as a body is what have you done to
raise that as a very serious issue? What have you done?
Ms Brown: The schools have the
devolved money. The issue is often because Ofsted expects to see
a local library within the local school too. As part of the Ofsted
Inspection they would expect to see a collection of books within
schools. In my locality what we have done is subsidise the school
library service, because the schools are not devolving their budgets
to the schools library services, and we have subsidised further
the schools library service in order to continue—
Q193 Ms Shipley: I am not talking
about your individual one here. I am talking to you as the Archives
Council and the Local Government Association. As a national body
what have you done; or what do you now intend to do?
Mr Batt: What we have done is
talk to DfES and raise this as an issue, among other issues, and
talk to DCMS.
Q194 Ms Shipley: When did you do
that?
Mr Batt: Within the past six months.
I cannot give you the exact date.
Q195 Ms Shipley: Would you write
to me with the exact date?
Mr Batt: Yes.
Mr Wood: We also launched a programme
about two years ago trying to achieve much better coordination
between school libraries, local libraries, book acquisition, access
and access hours; and that has had some impact. We do try and
pursue that with DfES on a regular basis in our regular meetings
with them. You are pointing to a problem which needs addressing.
Q196 Ms Shipley: A pretty major one.
A big pot of money not being used properly and it is your job
to be on their back vociferously—so you will be doing that
in the future?
Mr Wood: Yes.
Chairman: Thank you.
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