Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 259)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2004
DCMS, DFES, ODPM
Q240 Ms Shipley: Once money has been
devolved to schools to buy back library services, can you tell
if they have done this or not?
Mr Twigg: Yes, we can, and that
is the figure that Andrew has given that I have repeated.
Q241 Ms Shipley: The other word you
used?
Mr Twigg: Is to delegate, and
that gives far more freedom to the school.
Q242 Ms Shipley: When you have delegated
money to buy back library services, can you tell whether they
have done that?
Mr Twigg: Yes, we can tell whether
they have done it, and some do and some do not. The purpose of
delegation is that that decision is then made at the school level.
Q243 Ms Shipley: If I table a question
asking you to do that, you can answer fully?
Mr Twigg: I will do my very best.
Ms Shipley: Would you try. Thank you.
Q244 Chairman: She gave you a hard
time, did she not, Stephen?
Mr Twigg: I realise how lucky
I am in the DfES Select Committee.
Ms Shipley: We used to leaflet the streets
of London together!
Q245 Derek Wyatt: Following a little
bit of that, are librarians up or down in the school system? Are
there more librarians than there were 10 years ago or less?
Mr Twigg: I do not have that answer,
but I can provide that answer to the Committee.
Q246 Derek Wyatt: Can you find that
out?
Mr Twigg: Of course.
Q247 Derek Wyatt: In Building
Schools for the Future where schools will be open maybe 18
hours a day, possibly longer, but 18 hours is a break-through,
in my area it is the poorest schools that we want opened, but,
of course, they have the poorest libraries and the poorest facilities
and they are a long way from the central library. How is that
going to connect in the library system?
Mr Twigg: One of the exemplar
designs for Building Schools for the Future includes the
possibility of public libraries being co-located with schools.
We have had a recent example of a school funded through the private
finance initiative in the London Borough of Croydon, Ashburton
School, where the decision was taken locally to not only rebuild
the school but to re-provide a public library on the school site,
and that serves a deprived part of Croydon. Building Schools for
the Future, I think, is one of the ways in which we can promote
greater library use, whether that is of school library facilities
being opened up, which is one possibility through Extended Schools,
or whether it is the Croydon type of example of a public library
being on school grounds.
Q248 Derek Wyatt: That is good to
know, but that is the only example you know?
Mr Twigg: It is the only example
that I have got. Building Schools for the Future, of course, is
only just starting, and this is one of the exemplar designs that
we are promoting.
Q249 Derek Wyatt: Nick, turning to
the Thames Gateway, which is going to be a very large new city
really, in the sections on 106 and the infrastructure claims where
do libraries figure in all this. Are libraries non-league in terms
of infrastructure? Where does it feature?
Mr Raynsford: The crucial issue
here, on which I was tempted to interrupt in previous dialogue
with Debra Shipley, is the discretion that is left to local authorities.
We believe very strongly that local authorities should not be
unduly subject to input controls, which are only a measure of
resources, not of outcomes, and we do believe that authorities
should have discretion to determine local priorities. In negotiating
a local section 106 agreement we think it is right that the authority
itself should be free to determine whether the priority is to
do with additional educational facilities and, if so, whether
there should be a library component to that; whether there should
be cultural benefits and, again, if so, whether there should be
a library component, whether there should be affordable housing
or what other public goods should be sought. Obviously, it relates
to the type of development because it has to be relevant to that
development, but this a matter on which local authorities are
better placed than central government to determine.
Q250 Derek Wyatt: Would your office
have a record of how many section 106s have ever produced new
libraries?
Mr Raynsford: I doubt it very
much, because we really do not try to collect vast amounts of
information purely for the sake of information. I can inquire,
but I think it is very unlikely.
Q251 Derek Wyatt: In the way in which
information is going to be developed over the next 20 years, it
is clear, not necessarily that there is going to be a transference
from books, but books are not going to be the only system of getting
knowledge; the internet is going to play a bigger part. Would
it make more sense, rather than have three ministers, to have
one of you in charge of this and only one of you?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Is
not the library service rather fortunate that it has three such
benevolent godfathers?
Q252 Derek Wyatt: I would not say
that, no, because it dissipates the system. You were not here
earlier, but in my poorest areas the libraries are open the least
and had the worst books and the least internet facility. If there
was a priority, you would make sure that one of you there would
say, "This is not acceptable", but I find it very hard
to put where the one is?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have
read every one of the written submissions made to you, a huge
volume of written submissions with, I did not count, but something
like 50 local authorities describing to you the way in which their
library services are run, the way in which they have been improved,
the way in which there are longer hours and more visits. Clearly,
the ones who are less good have not replied to you in the same
way.
Q253 Derek Wyatt: Kent County Council.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am
not claiming that there are not library authorities who are less
good—that is the nature of the beast—but I do not
think you can generalise from one authority, as you have been
doing.
Q254 Derek Wyatt: Because it is my
authority?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes.
We are tempted to do that. My authority is—
Q255 Derek Wyatt: My one question
is: would it not be better if there was just one of you in charge
of this system?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No,
my Department has responsibility under the 1964 Public Library
Act to see that there is a library service which is comprehensive
and efficient. The funding of libraries, because of devolution
to local authorities, is the responsibility of the Office of the
Deputy Prime Minister. School libraries, local authorities provide
them in many cases, but it is Stephen Twigg who has been answering
questions, very properly, about that. I have seen no sign of conflict
between any of us on any of these issues.
Mr Raynsford: Could I add on the
local government financing side that in preparing for this session
I found it very interesting to see that the average increase in
spending on libraries over the period since we came into government
has almost exactly matched the average increase in government
grant to local authorities over that period; so there will be
no evidence at a macro level—and I accept that is across
local government as a whole—of libraries being disadvantaged
by the current financing regime. There may well be variations
within individual authorities, and that may be as a result of
a deliberate choice by a local authority, or it may be for other
factors, other reasons, but one thing I would stress is that the
grant distribution formula does attach significant weight to deprivation
to ensure that those areas that do have greater needs receive
a larger proportion of grant. Only yesterday evening I noticed
in the London Evening Standard a diatribe prompted by,
I think, the London Borough of Richmond on Thames, which is the
wealthiest London Borough, that it was not getting nearly as much
grant as the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, which is one of
the most deprived and which, incidentally, is probably one of
the real trail-blazers in terms of remodelling its library service.
So I think the general pattern of local government funding is
not antipathetic to creative action in relation to libraries.
Q256 Rosemary McKenna: Good Morning,
Ministers. I see that we are really getting to the core of things
this morning, because what you are saying is that local decision-making
is absolutely crucial. As a former local government councillor,
I agree with that. We do want to do that, but, at the same time,
the library community feels it does not have the clout. Everybody
loves it, it is valued, but it does not have the clout. I am wondering
how we can improve that situation. One of the things that we do
in Scotland is slightly different. We have an organisation which
almost mirrors the MLA, but does not quite because it is just
to do with the good libraries. That body is funded by the Scottish
Executive with pilot project money which comes from government,
and they use that money to develop best practice by examples,
not just by looking at best practice, but actually saying, "You
can bid for this money to produce something that is absolutely
first-class and we will then let the other authorities know about
it", but solely for libraries. Is that something you would
consider?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
is something that we do. When we published Framework for the Future
in February 2003, the next thing after that was not just to leave
it to moulder on the shelves but to fund, with a funding of £3
million, an action plan to do exactly what you are describing.
That action plan has certainly been given to you in written evidence,
and I am sure that it has been described to you by MLA this morning.
Not only that, that is in its second year now and it is doing
all the things you have talked about, but I have found a small
pot of money to go further than that: because I acknowledge that
there are places like those that Derek Wyatt is describing where
the library services have fallen behind, and I have set up an
improvement programme which is designed specifically to go into
those library authorities most in need of help to provide them
with peer review assistance from librarians in very good authorities
and to provide back-up assistance from people outside in such
areas as marketing, design, research, book procurement and so
on.
Q257 Rosemary McKenna: Is that money
channelled through MLA?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes.
Q258 Rosemary McKenna: It goes through
them?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That
is right.
Q259 Rosemary McKenna: And libraries
bid for it?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes,
Nick would not allow me to pay money directly to local authorities.
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