Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 279)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2004
DCMS, DFES, ODPM
Q260 Rosemary McKenna: No.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Quite
right too.
Q261 Rosemary McKenna: I understand
that, but that is only in its second year.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes,
and the improvement programme is only in its first year.
Q262 Rosemary McKenna: So it is happening
now?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
is going very well.
Q263 Rosemary McKenna: Because I
know that it does work. When authorities have to compete they
have to put up really good innovative programmes so that they
actually access the money that they want to develop. You feel
that there is a lot going on?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes,
but it is not only money. It is not the case that the worst library
authorities—
Q264 Rosemary McKenna: Have the less
money?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: —are
the worst funded. It is a matter of how you use the money that
is significant.
Q265 Rosemary McKenna: Can I ask
Steven about school library standards? Do you have a set of standards
that apply particularly to schools?
Mr Twigg: No, we do not. What
we seek to do is to win hearts and minds, and it links, in a sense,
Rosemary, to your previous question and to the earlier questioning
from Debra. A lot more of this is delegated or devolved into school
budgets, which gives schools a lot more choice about how they
use that money. What we think is most important is that we promote
high levels of literacy and numeracy, and so forth, in schools,
and different schools will choose to interpret that in different
ways. We think it is right that they do that and we have inspection
mechanisms in place to ensure that. So we do not have a basic
set of standards about the number of books, or whatever, because
it will depend on the particular circumstances of a school.
Q266 Rosemary McKenna: Are they part
of the inspection mechanism?
Mr Twigg: Yes.
Q267 Rosemary McKenna: Is that Ofsted,
as a rule?
Mr Twigg: Yes, it is part of the
role of Ofsted.
Q268 Rosemary McKenna: To look at
what is provided within—
Mr Twigg: Yes. Every year Ofsted
will inspect the progress on literacy and numeracy strategies,
for example, and clearly an important component of that is the
work going on school by school, including by libraries. Ofsted
are about to publish a new report on reading; and clearly the
role of school libraries would be critical in that report.
Q269 Rosemary McKenna: Is there a
librarian attached to every school library?
Mr Twigg: I am going to get the
exact figures for the numbers of librarians. It is always fatal
to reply anecdotally. I would say, in my experience of secondary
schools, certainly. With primary schools it is going to vary according
to the size of the school.
Q270 Rosemary McKenna: Would you
consider possibly having a school setting standards, because it
has worked in Scotland? We did set standards. It is part of the
mechanism and it has improved tremendously.
Mr Twigg: I am a great believer
in learning from what works in other places and learning from
what has happened in Scotland with devolution, or before devolution,
and if there is a set of standards that fit.
Q271 Rosemary McKenna: Even before
devolution the standards were set and the money transferred?
Mr Twigg: I am happy to look at
that, because increasingly the relationship between the Department
and schools and local government and schools is one that is based
on seeking to raise quality through sets of standards and inspection,
not necessarily through the budget.
Q272 Rosemary McKenna: When I started
teaching in the early seventies the school I started teaching
in did not have a library at all, and that is the change, but
some schools are very much further behind than are others.
Mr Twigg: I am very struck from
visits to schools that when schools are refurbished or rebuilt
a lot of resource goes into providing a decent library, and I
think, going back to Derek's earlier question around Building
Schools for the Future, the opportunity that we have with that
programme for every secondary school in the country over the next
15 years is enormous. The particular question was about links
between schools, the public library service and the opening up
of schools, but, simply in terms of what is available within the
school, having that facility there would be very important.
Q273 Rosemary McKenna: One more question
on allowing the authorities to make the decision. Were you not
very disappointed that 10% of authorities are charging for access
to the People's Network, and is there anything you can do about
that?
Mr Raynsford: This, I think, is
a very interesting issue that goes right to the nub of local discretion
versus national prescription. When we provided funding—and
there was very substantial funding provided from Government as
well as from the lottery—to fund the development of the
People's Network I think there was a hope that this would be provided
free of charge. A number of authorities have highlighted the extent
to which the usage of this facility, which has been a huge success,
has gone way beyond a dispassionate search for truth and that
some of the other services that libraries offer are subject to
charging and, therefore, it would be curious if there were no
charge in respect of such use of the internet. I myself do not
want to make a judgment on this, but I do think it is important
that every local authority should be thinking about the extent
to which its policy on charging may deter people from using a
service which should be as accessible as possible. If there is
evidence that it is, we clearly hope that they would reconsider.
Q274 Rosemary McKenna: It certainly
was about universal access, and charging just denies the principle.
Ten per cent is a small number, but it might affect a lot of people
who are really disadvantaged because they have they cannot afford
it.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
was not an issue which came to the fore in the Tavistock Institute
Research on the People's Network. Maybe we ought to ask them more
precisely what the effect would be of those authorities who charged.
Rosemary McKenna: Yes, I do think it
is worthwhile looking at, because it would be distressing to think
that all of that money that went into creating universal access,
even if 10% of people—It is a question that we should be
looking at.
Chairman: That was brisk and vigorous.
Thank you very much, gentleman, an example of joined up government.
Thank you.
Mr Doran: I am sorry Chairman, can I
make one small point?
Chairman: In that case Alan will have
to take the Chair.
In the absence of the Chairman, Alan Keen
was called to the Chair
Q275 Mr Doran: Picking up on Rosemary's
issue, I was a Scot and I thought that one the Scot was enough
for the questioning of three English Ministers! We were given
some figures on the effects of charging by the MLA, and they said
that in Buckinghamshire the research had shown that usage figures
had dropped by as much as 40% once charges were introduced. That
seems to me more than curious, to use your words, Nick?
Mr Raynsford: I would have thought
that was exactly the case for that information being brought to
the attention of the local authority and, indeed, when the Audit
Commission will be conducting its comprehensive performance assessment
on the authority.
Q276 Mr Doran: When we were questioning
the MLA earlier I asked what the source was, because I am not
familiar with the English bible of legislation, and I am told
it is the 1964 Act. If we were permitted to free access it would
be a fairly simple process at some stage, at some opportune moment,
to make this one of the free services, if we were serious.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We
do, of course, have public library standards, and the usage of
library services is critical to the achievement of those standards.
If in any given authority the usage of the People's Network services
decline, that will affect their achievement and their standards.
Q277 Mr Doran: Are you saying that
government intervention through the standards would negate the
need for a change in legislation. You could effectively do it
by diktat?
Mr Raynsford: Could I perhaps
comment on this. I do believe very strongly that a user perspective
on services is terribly important, and we are encouraging the
Audit Commission, which, as you know, is responsible for the inspection
of local authorities and the development of the Comprehensive
Performance Assessment, to give greater focus in the 2005 CPA
to user perspectives. In the case that you have quoted, where
there is clear evidence of user dissatisfaction or of a major
fall off in usage as a result of charges, this would seem to me
to be a very relevant and material fact, and that ought to be,
I think, the method for driving change rather than central government
dictating, which has got dangers of discouraging local initiative
and discouraging local authorities from trying to join up services
in ways that are not possible if you have very clearly defined
income streams, and there is an expectation that every penny allocated
for a particular issue is spent on that issue.
Q278 Mr Doran: I can understand that,
but what we are talking about here is the local government initiative
militating directly against what seem to be the fundamental principles
of the whole programme?
Mr Raynsford: But on this, as
on other comparable issues—and it is brought to my attention
all the time, as you may imagine, with a request that I intervene
where an authority appears to be acting in way that is not totally
consistent with central government objectives—and one has
to give that caveat because there are always exceptions, in general
my reply is that it is right for local authorities to take those
decisions in the light of local circumstances and to be accountable
for them, but I would expect the bodies responsible for inspecting
and examining the way the authority behaves to have that information
brought to their attention, and, if there is an impact on outcomes,
then that is a very serious issue indeed.
Q279 Mr Doran: Such as a 40% drop
in usage?
Mr Raynsford: Yes, exactly.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Or,
indeed, a drop in satisfaction with the services.
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