Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 284)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2004
DCMS, DFES, ODPM
Q280 Mr Doran: We have got two potential
routes: Andrew's standards revision possibly and the Audit Commission
intervention?
Mr Raynsford: Yes.
Mr Doran: That is fine.
Q281 Alan Keen: What I was going
to ask before the Chairman went was this. We have had the usual
discussions about whether libraries should be about books and
is access to the internet an intrusion into what libraries should
be. We have been through that; we have been through the different
quality and the differences in the quality of provision in different
areas and different libraries. The internet obviously is a replacement
for what used to be the reference section of the libraries. It
is pretty obvious, I think, to us all that one of the greatest
worries is the fact that there is a great chunk of young people
and people who would be life-long learners as well who have no
access to the internet; and some come to libraries and get that,
but there is a tremendous gap there, is there not? We know there
is a need for it, but we have not addressed the problem seriously.
We have talked about it and thought about it and worried about
it; we have not addressed it. What plans have you got for making
sure that we get all families access to the internet possibly
from their homes? This is something we have covered this morning
before you came in.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If
you divide up those people who have access to the internet, there
are those who have it at home, who are generally better off people
or people with young children, there are those who have it at
work, who have to be senior enough to use it for their own purposes
because those who are simply screen-based probably do not, and
here are those who have access through public libraries; and that
is what the People's Network does and it is enormously important;
but you are quite right, Chairman, that it does not bridge the
gap, the digital divide, between those who have access to the
internet or not. The fact that we have something like 30% of library
users using the internet is wonderful to me, but it does not bridge
the gap entirely. What is astonishing to me is how well books
are holding up when you think about the alternative ways that
people have of spending their leisure time, with television, radio
and videos, with on-line activities, computer games and so on.
Library book loans have indeed been declining, although I think
we are starting to make progress levelling that off, as we have
levelled off library visits, but book buying has increased very
substantially as well. In other words, reading is healthy, and
I think it is important that we should look at the work of public
libraries in context.
Q282 Alan Keen: Everything you have
said is absolutely right. It is that gap that exists that libraries
have been trying to fill, but they can only fill that with people
who actually enter the door to the library. They cannot get to
the people outside. The internet can provide a tremendous part
of our education, and everybody in this room probably uses it
for that purpose at some time. It is that chunk of people who
have no access, and it has to be addressed in this inquiry. It
is addressed at libraries, but if we do not address the large
group of people who do not visit libraries and who do not have
access, we are really not doing our duty properly. What plans,
what discussions have taken place to fill that void?
Mr Twigg: It is the exchange that
I had with Derek Wyatt earlier on. Part of it is the role that
schools themselves can play in providing access to facilities,
not only for their own students but for other pupils from other
schools, and potentially for the wider community. So I think the
Extended Schools channel is one way. Another is Learn Direct and
the Learn Direct centres that provide some opportunities. The
other programme that we have, which is a DfES programme through
the Learning and Skills Council, is City Learning Centres that
have been very much focused in some of the areas of greatest deprivation
to open up various learning opportunities focused on new technology
for the community as a whole. I have visited many of these centres,
particularly here in London, and have seen the way in which it
is giving chances to people who are much older, who perhaps have
never used a computer before and who certainly cannot afford to
have internet access at home. Those are the sorts of programmes
that make a real difference. The other thing I would say is that
there is a voluntary sector role here as well. I have seen in
my own area in Enfield Age Concern setting up opportunities for
older people to use school facilities. They are not run by the
school, they are run in fact in this particular instance by Age
Concern, and elderly people are going in and being "Silver
Surfers", as the club is called. There are all sorts of different
ways of doing it.
Q283 Alan Keen: Before you and your
colleagues go, a few years ago, we were told in the States that
everything was moving towards convergence of computers and television.
That never came about. We were misled completely. Is that some
extension of the television set? Is that the way to aim at getting
everyone with the ability to get through to the internet, because
it has to be addressed in this inquiry because no-one else is
doing it? If you three are not thinking about it, no-one else
is.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have
been caught forecasting this before. You are absolutely right
that it has been predicted that it is going to happen in our lifetime
for a very long time, and it has not happened. I think there are
now signs that there are some parts of the world where broadband
of a sufficient power, sufficient speed, and I am talking now
about five, six megabytes, is starting to become available, Careera
in Japan are examples of that. Once you have that you really have
the possibility of convergence, and it happens in Hull of all
places.
Alan Keen: If I was Debra, I would be
saying, "What are you doing about it?"
Ms Shipley: I am getting you trained
up there, Alan!
Q284 Alan Keen: What are you doing
about it? It is interesting to hear what is happening in other
parts of the world.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You
should have a fourth minister from DTI, because it is their responsibility
and you are welcome to question them on it, but I worked with
the DTI on the digital switch over programme and certainly we
and DTI are enormously supportive of broadband and wish to see
the barriers brought down.
Alan Keen: Thank you very much indeed.
You have helped us a great deal.
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