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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 81-ii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT COMMITTEE
Tuesday 14 December 2004 MR MARK WOOD, MR CHRIS BATT, MS LYN BROWN and MR TONY DURCAN RT HON LORD McINTOSH of HARINGEY, MR STEPHEN TWIGG MP and RT HON NICK RAYNSFORD MP Evidence heard in Public Questions 152 - 284
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Culture, Media and Sport Committee on Tuesday 14 December 2004 Members present Sir Gerald Kaufman, in the Chair Chris Bryant Mr Frank Doran Mr Adrian Flook Mr Nick Hawkins Alan Keen Rosemary McKenna Ms Debra Shipley Derek Wyatt ________________ Memoranda submitted by the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, the Local Government Association and Newcastle City Council
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Mr Mark Wood, Chairman, Mr Chris Batt, Chief Executive, Museums, Libraries and Archives Council; Ms Lyn Brown, Local Government Association and Chair of Culture & Community, Newham LBC and Mr Tony Durcan, Local Government Association and Head of Libraries and Information, Newcastle upon Tyne City Council, examined .
Chairman: Good morning. Thank you very much indeed for coming on this inquiry into libraries. I will call Rosemary McKenna to ask the first questions. Q152 Rosemary McKenna: Good morning. We have had evidence from the ACL and yourselves and it would appear that there is very little difference between the role that you carry out, the MLA and the ACL. You seem to have a very similar goal. Do we need both bodies, and why? Mr Batt: I think it is true in the past it may not have been completely clear, the differences between the two organisational bodies. The ACL is a statutory body that advises the minister; and the MLA has a range of responsibilities covering not just libraries but museums and archives as well, but clearly has a key role in developing policy, strategy and the implementation of programmes for libraries. Over the past year we have agreed with DCMS that the appropriate mechanism for ensuring coordination, and that we use the two organisations effectively, is that the chair of the Advisory Council should be a board member of MLA, which has worked effectively. With Framework for the Future - the development plan we are implementing for DCMS - the steering group for that is ACL as representative of the professionals and others involved. There is now a much closer working relationship. We are now working with DCMS to look at whether it is possible to integrate the activities more closely so there is, as it were, a single voice giving advice to the minister, without undermining the statutory responsibilities of the Advisory Council. Ms Brown: My view is that the Advisory Council for Libraries is a sole voice for libraries. It is a group of people, I believe, who monitor and evaluate the progress of the MLA and give advice directly to the minister about the role of libraries and, indeed, the progress around Framework for the Future. It has different networks available to it by the nature of those who are sitting around that table. My view is that the MLA should perhaps have a greater distance and be a critical friend, both outward facing towards the DCMS and outward facing towards the library authorities and the library services. I do see two distinct roles for the ACL and for the MLA. Mr Durcan: I would agree. Chief librarians are working with the MLA to implement Framework; whereas the ACL is checking on how well they do that. I think it perhaps would be a little inappropriate for the MLA to have both roles, or for one body to have both roles. Mr Wood: If I may add one point. I think all those points are very important, but one also has to be aware of a multiplicity of bodies advising government. What we are trying to talk through with DCMS now is the way to achieving a more coherent approach which prefers the strengths of what the ACL does now, and keeps the ACL ongoing, but ensures there is one voice speaking and advising government on a lot of policy. Ms Brown: My last point would be that the ACL's role is enshrined in statute and has, therefore, been a constant and has a value in that constancy. Q153 Rosemary McKenna: The MLA list in your evidence an extensive list of initiatives and plans for the future. There seem to be a multiplicity of initiatives. What had led up to that rush of activity? Where do you see it going? Mr Batt: It comes from Framework for the Future which is DCMS' ten-year vision for the development of a public library service in England. That laid down a series of areas for development, three key areas: books, reading and learning; digital citizenship; and community and civic values - three vital roles for libraries in the future. We were given the mandate to develop an implementation plan for the first three years of that work initially with £3 million, a million pounds each year; subsequently an additional million has been made available for this year and next year, so it will be a programme of £5 million in total. As I have said, that engaged the Advisory Council on Libraries to steer the development of that framework to ensure we engaged all the professions in other bodies in the process of doing that, to put together a whole range of activities which are helping to start the transformational progress for the public library service. There are a lot of programmes because we have been able to engage a whole range of partnerships for different organisations to develop from growing the competences of those working in libraries, particularly leadership skills, through all of the work you have heard about - the Reading Agency which is being funded through the Framework programme - through work with the Local Government Association and others to try and identify where the problems are, and what can be done to build a sustainable future for public libraries. Q154 Rosemary McKenna: If you could wave a magic wand what one thing would we do? We have heard about such a range of provision within authorities, within libraries - some very, very good, some very modern, some with very new initiatives and exciting, and some very, very poor. What one thing would bring those authorities with poor provision up to the level of the best? Mr Wood: The short answer is always funding, of course. Q155 Rosemary McKenna: Funding is not really the answer. It is how those local authorities make those decisions? Mr Wood: Correct. Q156 Rosemary McKenna: The funding comes from the Department. Mr Wood: At the root of some of the problems of some of the authorities is under-funding or at least low funding. I think parts of the programmes Chris has just outlined are all part of a broader programme to try and transform the way libraries work and the way they serve their communities and their users. What we have been focussing on quite clearly is the need to redefine the way libraries work. There is still some way to go, but we have seen a lot of programmes in the library world. It is our job to try and set clear strategies and performance targets and criteria, but it then comes down to working with local authorities and working with the libraries themselves to see that implemented. I think clarity on the role of libraries and communities and what they are supposed to be doing is probably the most important thing. We are seeing them defined as transforming when you see these beacon libraries that are really serving their users well and serving their communities well. Those are the ones one can set up as a model for the rest of the country: so to see they all following the beacons, really. Ms Brown: If I had one thing to do I would persuade the other departments outside the DCMS of the value of libraries to the outcomes they want to have. I would want to talk to the Department of Work and Pensions about what we do about getting people into employment, helping businesses and progressing people through employment channels. I would want to talk to the Home Office about what we are doing around anti-social behaviour, looking after our young people who might be in difficulties - getting them to school and that kind of stuff. I would want to talk to DfES about the kind of value we are adding to education programmes and learning for all sections of our communities. If I had one wand it would be to be able to show, demonstrate and have accepted by all the departments in Whitehall the value we have towards the outcomes we all jointly share. Mr Durcan: And to demonstrate to local government, via central government, that value. It is quite fortunate because we have two each and they are separate ones so we get both across. Mine would be about buildings. The public library building network is in a very poor condition. I think there is an important point about neutral space in towns, cities and villages, which is overlooked. In many ways I see the public library network having the potential to be the public realm of the future; to offer sheltered, safe public space. We really need to have creative ways in which to recreate that network. It was largely created through philanthropy many, many years ago. What we would like to open the debate about is whether or not the heritage Lottery funding could be available for library buildings as well as for other cultural buildings. We have nowhere to turn, other than to our existing mainline resources and some PFI projects to invest in the building network, and it sorely needs it. It is one of those few buildings which anybody can go into free of charge, for quite extensive hours in some places, and feel safe and have a positive experience. It is even better than the best square in a town because it has a roof on the top when it rains. I think it is very important we acknowledge the value of that to all communities. Ms Brown: Sometimes our libraries are just in the wrong place, and we need to move them and we do not necessarily have the capital or the opportunity to do so. Mr Batt: If there is one thing we would want, that is to see the Government continue to push hard on what is already happening. In terms of the library standards, the Framework programme and the People's Network, changes are taking place. Over the last three years, 80 per cent of the library authorities in England have increased their opening hours. 70 per cent of them have increased the number of books they purchase. Each year there are 40 million hours' of use of the People's Network; a whole range of activities; 106,000 training activities for people going in and using ICT. We need to continue those programmes. I agree completely with what the others have said - there needs to be significant investment in the building stock; but we have in place a range of programmes that are already making a difference. Q157 Rosemary McKenna: Can I ask you to comment on Dr Wozniak's review of the People's Network, which was very critical of the use that people were making of the internet? I thought that was not appropriate, because everyone uses the internet in a different way; and it was okay to say if people were just using it to e-mail or using it at a very surface level. Is that continuing, or is there a problem with funding continuation of the People's Network? Mr Batt: Sustainability is something we continue to talk to government about. At the moment there has been no indication that libraries are taking away any of those services, because they are so significant and such a large part of what is happening. That is one of the reasons why there are more visits to libraries now. Dr Wozniak is a lone voice in his views, and we have had quite a lot of discussions with him in the past about what he believes they should or should not be used for. The reality is, of course, that like everything else which goes on libraries it is a public space but it is there for personal activity. We would not stand in judgment if someone is e-mailing. There are many places where it is the only access route for asylum-seekers to keep in touch with families in other parts of the world; for people to start to explore using the technology and then moving on to buy their own computers. There is a whole range of things going on. We must recognise that, in terms of voting with their fingers, most of the population think it is really successful. Ms Brown: Can I agree with what Chris has said there. I represent one of the poorest communities in the country and we are really clear, although people say in questionnaires they have a computer at home, that computer might not actually work; it might not be plug-in-able; in fact it probably is not attached to the internet. The greatest divide I can see within this country, since the divide of literacy, is the divide of ICT. If our communities do not manage to become comfortable and confident with ICT then the divide between them and the work they are going to be able to access is going to become greater and greater. That is a divide which is going to be very hard to bridge. I do not care what they are using it for, as long as it is not against the law, but what I want to see is them using it, becoming familiar with it and working out why they might actually want one in their own home which will give greater access to their children too. Mr Wood: The People's Network is the first big transformational programme which has been introduced into libraries for decades effectively. I think it has been quite a success in many ways. Apart from providing a service to users which has brought even more visitors into libraries, it has started to reshape the way libraries think of themselves and the services they provide, because it has broadened out their service role, if you like. Of course, it has a vital service in a different way and that is, a lot of information (and increasing amounts of information) is only available online, or in a digital form or electronic form. That is an increasing trend. That digital divide will get larger if there are not public spaces available where people can access information with assistance - and that is precisely what libraries are doing. Indeed, what we are seeing with the People's Network is getting people into libraries, both old and young, teenagers and older people, who would not normally go into them and they are starting to borrow books as well. In many ways it has been a force for good. Yes, of course, there is going to be misuse occasionally but, by and large, libraries seem to manage the accesses pretty efficiently. Mr Durcan: That raises an interesting point about content. With the huge success of the People's Network what we have not been able to deliver on top of that is the content for the People's Network. There has been very welcome central funding through the New Opportunities Fund for digitalisation, for producing material which we can access through the network; but it tends to be somewhat piecemeal and looking at specific areas but perhaps not enough funding to complete those areas. I think there is a need nationally, working with other partners such as the British Library, to look at how we best use the resources we have across the country so everybody in all communities can access that. That was one of the visions of the People's Network. Not only was it about connectivity and access, but about the material being made available. We have not had the opportunity to fully develop that. Just to pick up an earlier point linked to the very great importance of access to the People's Network and the internet being free, many years ago we would run a user education session in the reference libraries so people could use the Encyclopaedia Britannica and they could walk in and use it whenever they wanted; we may no longer have a hardcopy of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is only available on the internet or electronically, and we do not want to be charging people to access that and we do want them to have independent use and not always mediated use. Rosemary McKenna: The Committee has already expressed concern about that. We will be exploring that with the LGA later on. Q158 Derek Wyatt: Good morning. How many new public libraries are built every year in the United Kingdom? Mr Batt: I do not have that information at my fingertips. There are not many new large libraries. Q159 Derek Wyatt: Ten, 50 or 100? Mr Batt: No, there are refurbishments going on, but there are far too few new libraries being built at the moment. Q160 Chairman: When you say "new", do you mean replacements? Mr Batt: They tend to be replacements. In many cases, with movements of town centres and populations, the library will be located close to the central population. Q161 Derek Wyatt: In planning you have a section 106 - how many section 106s produced new libraries in the United Kingdom last year? Mr Batt: At a guess I would say probably none. We could certainly get that information for you. Ms Brown: There are some. I have opened three in the last six years and, hopefully, one next year. I think there is a definition issue here, because one of mine is a replacement from a first floor to a shop front etc. I have used section 106. I have used SRB. Stratford Library was built on section 106; and next year it is going to be refurbished from our capital fund in another area. Two of my last three were built from section 106 and one had SRB section 106. I cannot see it is that unique in truth. Q162 Derek Wyatt: I think you are unique. I cannot think of a single one in my authority, and we are the largest authority - Kent. We have never used section 106 for libraries. We use them for village halls which never get built and for schools that never get built; but that is how section 106 seems to work - it works in favour of the developer. Ms Brown: I am sure we can do some research for you. Q163 Derek Wyatt: I would love to know how many section 106s certainly. Mr Durcan: We have one starting next year in Newcastle. We have rebuilt one of the new libraries through LPSA targets, so there are alternative ways of raising resources. Q164 Derek Wyatt: In my poorest communities are the libraries that open the least, where the stock of books is the worst. Is there a priority going out from government to say, "This has got to stop. We've got to get libraries to open in the poorest areas more than in the centre of town"? Ms Brown: I will talk to you about something we are doing next year, which is opening a library in North Woolwich. I closed that library in the mid 1990s because it was costing me £28 per book issue. I felt such guilt about closing it because I knew it was a very disadvantaged community which was cut off from many other services that were there, but the library simply was not the centre of its community at all, otherwise it would not be costing me that much to get so few people through those doors. We have learnt a lot about library usage since the mid 1990s in my own authority and elsewhere that we have nicked and added to our own service development. Fingers crossed that the new library I am going to open next year will be built from the community outwards. Just like Forest Gate, which opened last year, we understood who the communities were we wished to serve, and then tried to configure a service which would serve that community in total rather than just in part. That is what I am hoping to do at North Woolwich, which might make this an albatross that would otherwise hang around my neck until someone else closes it because it is not getting the people through the door, or it will make it the centre for that community. I am rather hoping the latter. Derek Wyatt: My point was, could the government do more? Initially the Lottery went to those people who could get bids together; and now the Lottery is targeted much more. Should we be doing more to make sure the poorest areas have very good libraries, the best opening hours and the best broadband facilities and so on? Q165 Chairman: Before that question is answered, could I just add to it with this: everyone now seems to regard the Lottery as their salvation but we do have an additionality principle. It would appear to me that there is absolutely no case, on the basis of the additionality principle, for the Lottery to fund libraries. It is a mainstream national service through local authorities and there ought to be funds made available for that to be done without the Lottery. I suppose one could look at various ancillary things that would not necessarily be done on the basis of mainstream funding but for myself, without quarrelling with what Derek is saying, I would take it very badly if, yet again, government were to shunt off responsibility for libraries onto the Lottery. It is not the Lottery's job. Mr Batt: There is a more general point which you are probably searching for, which is the fact there is a need for investment in terms of library buildings - whether that comes from the Lottery or anywhere else. I think that is probably the issue we would want to get across. That is clearly partly the responsibility of the local authority, to make decisions about their priorities - and there are some very good examples of local authorities where they have built excellent libraries in small, very poor communities and it is making a difference. If you look at Suffolk libraries, every one is open on a Sunday without exception. One of the things we can bring to bear over time is the use of the Public Library Standards to establish what local authorities are doing in terms of delivering services, and to make sure, so long as there is a connection between the standards and the Comprehensive Performance Assessment, there is a mechanism for encouraging those local authorities to increase opening hours and improve the quality of the services. That is one part of it. It is two sides of an equation, but we can do some of those things. There is certainly a need for more money to improve the quality of public library building stock. Q166 Derek Wyatt: Let me put to you a radical idea. We borrowed books in the 19th and 20th century, and the report BT commissioned last week showed that even by 2025 nine million people in this country still would not have a computer and still would not be connected; so the digital divide is actually expanding. Can we borrow laptops from libraries Ms Brown: Yes. Q167 Derek Wyatt: How does that work? Ms Brown: Very well. Q168 Derek Wyatt: How many laptops can you borrow from each library? Mr Durcan: We provide laptops to people who cannot get into libraries. We lend them to people who are either homebound or hospital-bound, as an extension of the People's Network. Q169 Derek Wyatt: How many do you have to loan? Mr Durcan: About 50. Q170 Derek Wyatt: For a population of what? Mr Durcan: 270,000 - but not 270,000 housebound. Q171 Derek Wyatt: I appreciate that. Nine million is a large figure of people. You do not get them stolen? There is no deposit required? Mr Durcan: No, we take them to people's homes; we show them how to use them; we leave them there and collect them later, alongside delivering library books to those people as well. We felt it was important that the People's Network was not just available to people who could come into the library; it was a service to the community and we had to find a way of delivering it externally. Q172 Derek Wyatt: That is very interesting. Mr Wood: That is happening in a number of authorities. I wish to come back on the last question because the two are linked. It is slow and steady progress in some of these areas, but best practice is a very good way of getting authorities to do things. If one can demonstrate, to take this example, that an authority with this sort of population and this kind of demographic can provide this kind of service, these are powerful arguments to the other ones. That is the way we do make steady progress without with local authorities. Q173 Derek Wyatt: If the government could say, "Listen, all we need to do is provide an internet access over the computer - it'll cost £75, we could loan out thousands and thousands of laptops", that is the issue, is it not? With computers we are being dictated to on costs and that is an issue. Mr Wood: That would be a good way. You have still got to manage the lending and so on. Q174 Derek Wyatt: I understand that. Mr Wood: Of course, if you could get lower cost laptops and make them available, yes. Ms Brown: Yes, we do loan. Q175 Derek Wyatt: How many do you loan? Ms Brown: I am sorry, I have no idea. Q176 Derek Wyatt: 100 or 500? Ms Brown: It would not be as high as that. I am in a London authority with a relatively small population. We do not just do it for housebound, we do it for anybody who wishes to take the computer home because they wish to continue to do a CV, a job application or just want to surf the net. We have our libraries open to them. To answer the question on additionality, I would argue that libraries are not any more just a depository of books; they have become village halls for some people; they have become a place where drama societies meet, so it is almost like a mini theatre for some of them. There are tiny little rooms; I am not talking about huge ones. They have become a nursery and a crèche. They have become a CAB service, where you access advice. They are internet cafes. There is a whole bunch of additionality which is not part of that core service which we would be able to provide more of if we managed to have buildings that were fit for purpose in places that were accessible to the local community. I just offer that as a suggestion as to why we might want to consider opening a big Lottery fund. Q177 Chairman: I do not want to appear to be cavalier about the line of questioning Derek Wyatt has been following, but is it really the job of libraries to make available laptop computers? I am not saying laptop computers should not be available. For those who do not have the resources, access to computers and the internet ought to be made available through public funding. In my constituency we have a number of publicly-funded online centres which are absolutely excellent and which give access both to training to use computers and to use the internet for people who cannot afford their own computers. Fine. Is one of the problems with the libraries that they are being asked to do things or are expected to do things other than the traditional job of libraries - which is to have books that people can read? Ms Brown: My answer to that would be, our libraries want to provide for our communities that traditional role of providing access to information, and in order to do that we have to find new ways of providing that service. The reason we loan laptops out is because we are aware our public access to the internet closes, whether it closes at five, six, seven or eight at night, and there will be times when people, particularly on shift work, and young people coming home from school who have a silly journey to make, cannot access the facility whilst it is open and may need to have a resource at home in order to enable them to participate in which part of the function they are needing - whether it is accessing a job, looking up job vacancies on the internet, completing their homework or doing a CV. They might not have the time when the public access to a facility is there for them, so our libraries do see it as an extension of their natural function within a community. I think our libraries have begun to see themselves as they used to be and I do think it is an extension of an idea as a central place for the community to access the things it needs to grow and thrive. Q178 Chairman: This Committee years ago, at the beginning of the period of office of this government, pressed hard for online access (not in the libraries inquiry) to people particularly in deprived areas, but not only in deprived areas. David Clark, who was then the minister in the Cabinet Office, was doing a very good job before he was inexplicably removed from his job. We never looked at that as a job of libraries. To enable people to have access to job vacancies, to have a direct dialogue with housing benefit, child benefit, income support, tax credit and all those things, great, fine, I am strongly in favour of it; but that is not the job of a library. It has emerged from the evidence sessions we have had that libraries now curiously have more money than they have ever had before, yet they are buying fewer books and they are open fewer hours. May this not be because the essence of the library is being adulterated by the government and other public agencies imposing duties on libraries that are not the job of libraries? Those duties are important, and I do not in any way cavil that they are being provided - the reverse; but is too much being loaded on the back of libraries which are there to provide books not only for information but for pleasure and entertainment and uplifting? That is what it is all about. Mr Durcan: I agree entirely with what you say. It has always been a very important element of the access to information, a crucial element, which has varied from community to community. One of the main reasons for our heavy use of ICT is to provide users with that continuing access. Many, many years ago it would have been a very simple process of going to the library for a piece of printed information; but information has become much more complex. There are many more organisations involved in providing information, and the library service is the neutral space in any community which an individual can go to. When we talk about lending laptops (in our case and in the case of some other authorities) to people who cannot get to libraries, what we are trying to do there is no to discriminate against certain sections of the community who are not able to wander down and at their leisure use that information. So much information also is no longer available in traditional printed format; therefore we need the computer access to provide that. The computer provides access to services. For example, if you were unable to get to the library you could still through a computer, whether your own or one you borrow, access the library catalogue, reserve the books you want to read, arrange for them to be delivered or renew your books; things you would be dependent upon other people to do or not be able to do at all. The person who is dependent on a home delivery service, at its very basic level, receives books that other people choose for them. We have worked very hard over many years to try and get those services to as equal a level as possible. Chairman: I have got three colleagues who have suddenly jumped on the bandwagon. As we have only got a few more minutes to go I should keep it for the collection of ministers who will be jostling not to claim responsibility for libraries, to ask them about the possibility not of Lottery funding but whether there is a role for PFI in libraries. Q179 Mr Doran: There are two things I want to ask: first of all, in your submission you mention that libraries in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales do not charge for IT access, but there are some libraries in England which do. You mentioned specifically a survey in Buckinghamshire. Can you tell me what the basis of the charge is, and the basis upon which the libraries make that charge, and where the power comes from? Mr Batt: There is no constraint on them charging because there is nothing under the current Public Libraries' Act that requires them to provide that service free of charge. From the very beginning when we started the People's Network service and started rolling out the terminals in libraries we ensured that as much as possible library authorities would provide it free of charge at point of use. About ten per cent are now making charges, and that is often with the first half an hour free and then 50p per half an hour after that. Q180 Mr Doran: Could we have a list of these authorities? Mr Batt: Yes. Q181 Mr Doran: Secondly, this has been an issue which has been raised in earlier sessions, and that is the fact that while your lead department is DCMS, your main funding comes from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and obviously there is close involvement with DfES as well. That seems a little bit skewed. It sometimes strikes us as a little bit odd that things are handled in that way. Is that something you are comfortable with, or do you think it is something which could be improved? Mr Batt: My view is the important thing is that departments work together to establish the things which they share jointly. In the end the provision of public library services is the responsibility of local authorities to deliver. Clearly, that goes through the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. The crucial thing is that there is a golden thread that runs through DCMS, ODPM and DfES to ensure maximum delivery. I am not sure that it is "which department"; it is how the departments work together. Ms Brown: I agree with that. The LGA's position is that libraries are central to the core of wherever DCMS is going. They are there to advocate on behalf of libraries and we think they are in fact doing that role. We would ask that they outward face more and enable us in libraries to have greater access to policymakers and others within the Home Office, the Department of Work and Pensions, DfES and ODPM etc, because we think we offer something to each of those departments. Q182 Mr Doran: You feel they are the strongest advocates for the culture of libraries, if you like? Ms Brown: Yes. Q183 Chris Bryant: The vast majority of people who use the library at any point will mostly be using their own local library and will not necessarily be searching for anything particularly recondite or abstruse; but, on occasion, people may be wanting something that is not available in a local library because they might be researching something to do with their family living in another part of the country. Quite often, they will then find the library in the other part of the country works on a completely different set of assumptions about how they store material, about how you have access to it; it might not be findable; that it is available in another library without physically going there. Is there room for further cooperation and coordination? Mr Batt: It already exists. There is an inter-library lending system across the whole of the country. Q184 Chris Bryant: But phenomenally difficult to use - as one who has used it many times? Mr Durcan: An example, Chairman: we have a very tiny village library with a reader who specialises in obscure 16th century witchcraft and we have been sending him books on our library from the British Library for the last year. That is one example. In our experience it works extremely well. Q185 Chris Bryant: That depends on a cataloguing system, and many different libraries have different and separate cataloguing systems and sometimes it is very difficult to find these. I can see Lyn Brown itching to say something. Ms Brown: I am always itching to say something and if you knew me better you would know that! The London Library Development Agency has got something in place which is What's in London's Library, which effectively gives every single London library user, and anybody who is not in London Library, an opportunity to go through the whole catalogue of what is in London and be able to access for themselves knowledge of what is where and to ask for their library to be able to get it. I understand there has been some interest from other authorities in order to move that out across the country possibly, or regions of the country. I do think ICT is going to be a great benefit to us in getting access. Q186 Chris Bryant: Even down to the British Library catalogue itself, which is split between before 1950 and after 1950 - if an author does most of their stuff in one half, rather than the other, then they are not in the other - there still seems an awful lot of tidying-up to be done. It is the kind of thing which would suit a librarian to do. Mr Durcan: There is room for improvement. It is more the collections of some of the individual libraries, than it is of more historic collections which have not had an electronic catalogue record created. It is one of those things about content of the People's Network again. The British Library itself we seem to find not a problem; but a number of us have collections which are not terribly accessible and we are working to try and sort that out. There is lots of room for improvement. Mr Batt: Can I suggest you ask a librarian because they will sort out the problem for you. Chris Bryant: Again, I have to say, not my experience. Q187 Chairman: What is wrong with the duodecimal system? Mr Durcan: It depends upon which edition you are using, Chairman. Chris Bryant: If you are researching George Lansbury, a lot of the material on George Lansbury is hidden in boxes in the East End in London which, for a long time, were never opened and nobody ever knew the stuff was there apart maybe from Angela Lansbury - but she was more interested in other investigations. Chairman: I tried to find a way of interviewing her by saying I would like to discuss her grandfather with her, but she did not bite! Q188 Ms Shipley: The Audit Commission in response to my questioning of them - and I thought the Audit Commission, when they came in front of us, were very impressive - mentioned something which has been recorded here by the Clerk, so I know it is accurate: "The Audit Commission mentioned in evidence to us that the decision was taken by central government to devolve money to schools to buy back school library services. We were told that there is a very uneven pattern of identified expenditure on school library services in section 52 statements [which you will be aware] (which is the spending return by a local authority on education) and that schools are not buying back into school library services". Can you provide any comment on this and evidence as to how many local authorities are not devolving money, and can you identify them? Mr Batt: I cannot answer the question about specific ones. I am sure the Audit Commission will be able to provide that information to you. It is a concern we have, that the provision of access to a library service to support schools is not even across the country. Part of Framework for the Future is looking at ways of raising that. Clearly, to the extent that those responsibilities are devolved to head teachers to deal with, and with education authorities, we cannot intervene directly. Anything that this committee can do to support the need for more intervention would be helpful. Q189 Ms Shipley: What have you done if you think it is important? Mr Batt: Something the LGA has done is to look at the extension of public libraries linking with schools. Q190 Ms Shipley: No, I am talking specifically about this pot of money which is not being appropriately spent. What have you done about it? You have identified it, so what have you done? It is great to identify it but it is useless if you do not do anything. Mr Durcan: My understanding is the money has been devolved but not all schools are choosing to buy into the school library service. Q191 Ms Shipley: What have you done about that? Ms Brown: The schools have chosen to spend money ------ Q192 Ms Shipley: I have just read that. What I am asking you as a body is what have you done to raise that as a very serious issue? What have you done? Ms Brown: The schools have the devolved money. The issue is often because Ofsted expects to see a local library within the local school too. As part of the Ofsted Inspection they would expect to see a collection of books within schools. In my locality what we have done is subsidise the school library service, because the schools are not devolving their budgets to the schools library services, and we have subsidised further the schools library service in order to continue ----- Q193 Ms Shipley: I am not talking about your individual one here. I am talking to you as the Archives Council and the Local Government Association. As a national body what have you done; or what do you now intend to do? Mr Batt: What we have done is talk to DfES and raise this as an issue, among other issues, and talk to DCMS. Q194 Ms Shipley: When did you do that? Mr Batt: Within the past six months. I cannot give you the exact date. Q195 Ms Shipley: Would you write to me with the exact date? Mr Batt: Yes. Mr Wood: We also launched a programme about two years ago trying to achieve much better coordination between school libraries, local libraries, book acquisition, access and access hours; and that has had some impact. We do try and pursue that with DfES on a regular basis in our regular meetings with them. You are pointing to a problem which needs addressing. Q196 Ms Shipley: A pretty major one. A big pot of money not being used properly and it is your job to be on their back vociferously - so you will be doing that in the future? Mr Wood: Yes. Chairman: Thank you. Witness: Ms Jacqueline Wilson, OBE, most 'borrowed' author in UK libraries, examined.
Chairman: Good morning. Q197 Rosemary McKenna: Good morning and welcome to the Committee. It is a pleasure to have an author before us because, after all, that is what a library is about, is it not, it is about books. Congratulations that you have recently replaced Catherine Cookson at the top of the most borrowed books in the UK. That seems to me a very good sign. That means young people are actually borrowing more books. Ms Wilson: I think it really astonished me that I was the most borrowed authority. Dame Catherine certainly managed six years beyond the grave of still being the most borrowed author and I felt very honoured; but it was also nothing to do with my own pride and joy but did prove that children are still using libraries. I do not know whether it is individually, in families, going after school or whether it is work from librarians inviting them in on special school trips; but however it happened, obviously many, many children are using libraries. Speaking as somebody who haunted my local library as a child (it was my only access to books then) inevitably I think it is a wonderful thing. Q198 Rosemary McKenna: I agree. It was my only access to books. As a young child I was constantly being told by my mother to get my nose out of a book, and she did regret that later on when she realised how important it was! What do you think librarians could do to change libraries to make them more inviting; to make them more a crucial part of life today, as they were in the past? Ms Wilson: Speaking simply from the point of view that mostly I get invited into libraries as a children's author and, therefore, I am in the children's library, I think they do try very, very hard. I think the buildings vary enormously from the splendid Victorian palatial buildings, where rain might be coming through the roof still, to a few modern state of the art buildings; but there are many libraries where when you are invited and stand outside and it is a 1960s concrete Nissan hut and it does not look inviting, but inside I find nearly always the children's librarian, or some member of the team, has provided bright murals, cushions you slump on, small tables for children to sprawl out on and they are always bright and colourful. Obviously there is a limit to what you can do with a small space like this. I come from Kingston and my own children's library is what seems like a glorified Portakabin from the outside, but inside they do try their best; and they try very hard to make libraries warm and welcoming places. Particularly in the summer holidays, nearly all libraries seem to have some kind of special project to bring children into libraries so they do not just sit at home saying, "Mum, I'm bored", or whatever. I think this is great. Q199 Rosemary McKenna: I think that is a very important point, that the buildings themselves sometimes are not welcoming from the outside. I think that libraries are the most non-threatening places for people to feel they want to go into. Obviously your experience shows that inside - yes; but from the outside some of them are pretty intimidating and pretty unwelcoming and that would make a big difference too. Have you been in both types of library? There seems to be today two different types of library - one which is fairly traditional and one which is very new and welcoming, like the Tower Hamlets library. Do you have a view on what libraries ought to be today? Ms Wilson: All my friends behind me will sigh and groan because I am a dinosaur - I feel that libraries should mostly be about books. I am somebody who does not properly have a computer at home herself! This is not top of my list. I am very much in a minority of one, I would imagine. I do feel of course it is important that all sorts of modern technology is available for people to use in libraries, but certainly judging from the libraries I have been in I think there are fewer books than there used to be. I can understand why libraries sell off books every now and then, but it is seems dreadful if a child, or an adult, particularly hones in on a specific author. When I was young if you started to read somebody and liked their books there was a huge backlist waiting for you and now there is not; there are just a couple of books. Everybody to do with libraries is trying so hard to serve all the community but I feel occasionally the one person they are forgetting about is the poor person who loves reading who might want to have something stretching, exciting and imaginative. I know it is very difficult, but I have heard in various libraries that if the book-buying has to be cut it is often the children's books that are frozen and this does seem a shame. Inevitably children are going to use books a little more roughly than adults for the most part and things need to be renewed quite frequently. It does seem sad in a way. After all, if you grab children and make them readers they grow up to love books and to be literate members of society. I do feel that books themselves really could be a top priority. Q200 Ms Shipley: I am beginning to think books are quite dangerous commodities. Lizzie Zipmouth has caused me quite serious problems, which I will not go into now otherwise the press would report it! You know the topic of your book - quite serious problems! Just to debunk the buildings one a bit further, I am of the view that as long as the building is clean and sound actually it is librarian who is going to make the big difference to the atmosphere and whether a child, in particular, wants to go into there or not. They are not going to think, "Flash, lovely new building. How wonderful". They are not going to think, "Nissan hut, how horrible!" They are going to think, "Fun library", or, "Grotty library" depending on how welcome they are made to feel, which could be a pot of paint, a clean rug and a very, very good librarian. Would you agree with that? Ms Wilson: I do tend to agree. It is like schools, a school can be practically falling to bits but if you have got an inspiring teaching staff it works. However, how nice it would be if you have brilliant librarians plus a delightful building to enjoy using. Q201 Ms Shipley: I totally agree, but the capital expenditure on delightful buildings is millions and millions and millions and millions and millions, so how much better to put that into books and people rather than yet another new building going up, even though I love modern architecture. That is one point. The other point on the books front is, I think getting children through the door and giving them books earlier on is very important; but when it comes to the adults I think the books become less important (as in having the stock there) and the community information becomes extremely important because the inter-library loan system is really very good and very cheap? Ms Wilson: Yes. Q202 Ms Shipley: On buying new books for children, I am with you all the way - they need them there, and they need them now, and any back stocks and all of that. The adult ones they could get away with considerably less using the inter-library loan more and beefing-up more of the community information, which is vital really? Ms Wilson: Yet now we have the BBC's Big Read, and we have book groups; and coming up today on the train nearly everybody had their head in a book, and I do think it would be good if we could focus more on adult fiction. Of my age, many of my friends sadly have been shunted out of work. They want to keep their minds alive and they have not got unlimited funds and going to the library and reading the Booker Prize there would be something they would very much like to do. If the library could manage ten copies of it there for whoever wanted to come in I think that would be a wonderful service to the community. Q203 Mr Flook: From an author's point of view, how important was the library in getting your reputation and selling books off the ground? Ms Wilson: Enormously. In fact, I would say that it was 50 per cent of the reason why my books became successful. When you are an author and you write for children, children's librarians read an enormous amount and are terribly aware, long before anybody else has ever heard of you, of which books you write; and you get invited into libraries and you meet lots of children from all over the country, so you speak in leafy suburbs and in the toughest estates and you get to see your readers. They come into the libraries and learn that authors can be fun and human beings and that they can tell you why they wrote this or that. It is, hopefully, interesting for them too. For authors it means you are spreading yourself around; you are getting better known; you get paid a little bit of money to go and do this; and also there is the public lending rights scheme which is very, very important to many authors because, although there are the few names everybody has heard of, most authors earn very, very little money and therefore it so helps you get your public lending rights money each spring. Many children's authors pay their bills, pay their mortgage and feed their kids by going out to libraries and giving talks there. Q204 Mr Flook: It is not something I have ever thought of before, but do publishers make a big effort to get their authors into a library as much as they ought to? Is that an avenue which is not always pursued? Ms Wilson: I would think publishers would make more of an effort to get authors into bookshops, rather than libraries. Yes, they are very supportive but mostly it is something where authors themselves are contacted by librarians or library authorities and invited in. Also in the summer there are lots of special reading schemes and many authors go along and take part in this. I was involved in a scheme called "Chatter Books" which was reading groups for 4-12 year olds. It was very interesting because there were not any ground rules laid down and different librarians in different areas interpreted in their own ways. In some areas it was very much children who liked to read. These were the ones who were not necessarily going to want to join a sports club; and how lovely that they got together to discuss books and do all sorts of things. In other areas there were children who were struggling to read properly themselves and, therefore, sometimes mums thought this might give them a bit of extra coaching; and then the librarians very cleverly read aloud books with them and all discussed quite simple text and tried to get the child over the first few stages of reeling back in horror at dense text, into thinking, "Yes, books can be fun". These schemes, although they are not nationwide and are in different places, do work a treat. Q205 Mr Flook: At what point in your career did you gauge your success? Was it by the number of books you sold, or the number of books you found were in public libraries? Ms Wilson: Certainly my books were in public libraries long before they ever graced the shelves of W H Smith, or whatever. In fact now it is particularly delightful if I get specific sweetly obsessive fans who want to read absolutely everything still in some reserve stock, because I have been writing for about 30 years. There are some very early titles they still can access, and that is nice. Q206 Alan Keen: I am in the worst position to judge children's ideas and desires for reading because I am just beginning to get grandchildren and they are too young to read yet and it has been a lot of years since I last had my own children reading. What do you think children gain the most from reading your books? You obviously have quite a bit of interaction with them; how does it benefit their lives from reading your books? Ms Wilson: I set out to entertain, but also I tend, not deliberately, to specialise in writing about sad little souls who are the odd ones out. I think for many children going through slightly troubling circumstances, like mums and dads splitting up or whatever, it is a bit of a comfort to them to know they are not alone. For children in very happy circumstances it helps them see maybe the odd scabby-looking child from the bad estate, whatever, is not necessarily a nasty person and all sorts of exciting and interesting things might be going on in their minds. Hopefully, you learn this sort of thing. Certainly my books perhaps take up a bit of "W"s on the shelf but nowadays there are so many different books, yet as well as wanting to champion the cause of all my fellow authors and encouraging libraries to have lots of new books, I find it devastating when talking to children and asking them if they have ever read Tom Sawyer, Little Women, or The Railway Children frequently they have not and they are classics. For adults too because, every now and then, you get a television serialisation and you see Colin Firth as Mr Darcy and everybody wants to read Pride and Prejudice, but it would be nice to feel that every now and then the classics could be there in the library even if they are not used very often, because they are not necessarily the sort of books that everybody has at home on bookshelves. Q207 Alan Keen: You feel you are educating the youngsters about life, rather than just entertaining? Ms Wilson: I think entertaining is very important too. There is such a wide variety. I am sure the vast majority of the funding for children's libraries is taken up with buying multiple copies of Harry Potter because they are obviously so popular. This again shows there is a big thirst for sheer entertainment and fantasy and this is lovely. Books cover so many different subjects of so many types, and I think it is a very rich time for literature; but I do certainly feel for many families book-buying is not a top priority. I cannot understand why libraries cannot capitalise on this. I know advertising is very expensive but outside a public library - and my latest book is called The Diamond Girls and it is £10.99 - you could have: "The Diamond Girls by Jacqueline Wilson: £10.99 in Waterstone; £8.99 in Ottakars; £6.40 on Amazon; £5.99 Sussex Stationers; and nothing at all in our library", and bring people in more to show them what a wonderful public service this is. Q208 Alan Keen: With your interaction with young people when you visit libraries has that stimulated you to think you should include other issues in the books to help lead them on and draw them into more understanding of the problems they have raised with you? Ms Wilson: Sometimes but I rely on an idea which crops up in my imagination. Occasionally some terribly well-meaning adult will come along with a shrinking child and say, "Have you ever thought of writing about bedwetting?", but it does not really work like that. It does keep you on the ball. I know most children's authors - including J K Rowling, Philip Pullman and Michael Morpurgo the Children's Laureate - are all very happy indeed to go into libraries and try and do our best. We all know at an event organised by librarians they will have worked hard and will have tried very hard indeed to bring in schools that have never visited a library before. I have literally been in libraries where children come in astonished and look at the books and say, "Is it like a video shop? How much do you have to pay for them?" It is lovely to feel these children are going into libraries which might be quite inhibiting places and they might still have been told by mums or grannies you have to keep quiet and behave whereas, hopefully you behave a little bit, you do not have to keep quiet in a library any more, you can chatter and do whatever. Q209 Alan Keen: Some of the greatest changes in how the British public have viewed some social issues have been brought about by the subs. Michael Cashman, when he was playing a part, I think made an enormous difference to the public's view of gay people. Does it weigh heavily on you how many youngsters read your books every year? Do you feel a heavy weight of responsibility that you can have quite an effect on their understanding? Ms Wilson: I do feel a heavy weight of responsibility, and I have a literal heavy weight of letters from children asking about this and that. I am not qualified to give any serious advice; but I can be like nice great aunt, or something, and write to them a little bit. It is lovely to feel that. Nowadays authors are encouraged to go into the community and be part of the community. In Key Stage 2 in primary schools you have to do a special project or write to a famous person. I think most teachers are aware that if you write to David Beckham he will not have time to write back personally, but if you write to an author they will write back to you. It is also nice that the children have a hope of inviting you back to the school, back to the library and meeting you and having a chat with you. Authors are much more available now for children, which is a good thing from both sides. Q210 Alan Keen: Can I thank you, because you have taken us back and made us understand how we read books as young people. I think it has been well worth your visit answering these questions alone. Thank you very much. Ms Wilson: Thank you. Ms Shipley: I am going to lend you Dinosaurs Packed Lunch! Q211 Mr Hawkins: Can I reassure you that you are not the only dinosaur in terms of believing that libraries should be principally about books. Can I also thank you, because my own daughter, who is 14, has been inspired not only to read by reading your books but also to think in terms of possibly a career as a writer; so another one to add to the list of all those you have helpfully influenced. I wanted to particularly ask you about the worrying trend that you have detected that children's book‑buying lists in children's libraries tend to be the first casualty, because I share your concern about that, and also the point you made about particularly the classic writers and, as it were, the range of novels. The point Alan has just touched on brought me back to thinking that when I first read an Arthur Ransom book in a mobile library when I was growing up on a housing estate I wanted to read all the rest of the Arthur Ransoms, and one could request that the mobile library got the others from the main library. I have noticed that in recent years, sadly, a lot of mobile library services have been withdrawn as a result of cost cutting. Is that something that you share my concern about, that libraries, particularly for children, should be going out from the centre with mobile libraries? Ms Wilson: That would be a wonderful idea. Certainly I think mobile libraries, judging from Kingston, where I live, are very good for the elderly, and they supply my mum with fantastic books. Maybe they go out and reach children, I do not know. Certainly we have a sort of fair on a field quite near the library for the entire local community in May, and then there is always a mobile van filled with library books, some of them for children, and the librarians do try, and they even, bless them, dress up as Peter Rabbit and goodness knows what to try and attract children. I suppose it is simply availability and who can do what when. Q212 Mr Hawkins: Can I also ask you about whether you feel in all your visits to libraries up and down the country and in your conversations with librarians there has been external pressure on librarians to say, "We have to spend the money we do have on the new technology", on the IT? Are we getting, as I think you implied earlier, too far away from the traditional idea that, particularly for children, libraries should be full of the maximum number of books? Ms Wilson: I think so. Certainly because I receive so many different projects I know I am intensely prejudiced, but for the 19 children that use the internet and simply print out whatever is available on me, the twentieth the child, who actually might look at one or two books or who might think about it or who might go to the library and find the one or two books that mention me and then do it, is always much more worthwhile, and probably all that information is something to that child's head rather than just scrolling down on something, seeing the information they need and printing it out. I do think that that is a slight problem. I am obviously not saying that information on the internet--- It is wonderful to be able to get worldwide knowledge just like that. However, what I would say is that, mostly, when you have got something in a book someone somewhere has edited it, thought about it and taken issue with the author. As far as I know, on the internet things are just there, and often children are absorbing information that is not necessarily accurate or couched in the most elegant and stylistic way; so I would not always say that internet access is preferable at all to books. Certainly in schools I always feel very depressed when the room that used to be the library is now the learning resource centre, and, yes, it is very important to be able to access all sorts of information, but libraries are for reading and, as you said, I think, for amusement, for stimulation, for entertainment. Q213 Mr Hawkins: Thank you. I completely agree with that. My final question really takes us on from there. It seems to me that one of the concerns is that children are being too much influenced to use the short cut. As you said, the internet is a wonderful resource if you use it in a sensible way, but it would be terribly damaging, it seems to me, if teachers were simply telling all children to go and use the internet, particularly given that your novels tend to feature, as you have mentioned, children in challenging situations. It is far better that children should sit down and read one of your books or an Anne Fine book or a Philip Pullman book and start thinking about the ideas that you set‑off in their minds than that they are simply in front of a screen pressing buttons. It seems to me that, if we can, as part of the work of this Committee, get back to the traditional idea of libraries and the value that they have, that could be something we could do in Parliament to back up new ideas. Ms Wilson: Yes, I think so. I think practically every author I know is a champion of libraries and tries very hard to champion the traditional role of libraries, but that is not to say that everybody is anti the whole idea of computer access and everything, which is fairly important, but still to focus on the fact that it is books that gave libraries their title, and let us hope they carry on staying on the shelves. Mr Hawkins: Indeed; thank you, Chairman. Q214 Derek Wyatt: Could it be that the reason why there are not so many books in libraries is because publishers do not keep their back‑lists as they used to? Ms Wilson: Publishers do not always keep their back‑list. It is a dreadful shame. Everywhere everything has become so much more commercial, and it costs so much to store things in warehouses, and so, unless you are in a very lucky state, back‑lists do disappear. This is very sad, and it is sad for authors. It is also sad for readers when you cannot catch up with things. Libraries always used to have a room or somewhere ‑ you never got to see it, but you could request a book and then it would come out of reserve stock. I do not think that is available any more, sadly. Q215 Derek Wyatt: There is an Everyman's library which has got the classics. Is there an Everyman's for children's books? Ms Wilson: Not exactly. Although Everyman's library did promote a few children's classics, and Puffin still valiantly do classics and do reissue them from time to time. It is simply trying to get the right look, the right style. I have always championed the idea of authors choosing their particular favourite classic and then doing an introduction and may be even in the margin for the first chapter, which might be heavy going, have little scribbles that say, "It is okay. It will get easier in the end", or, "Skip this passage. It does not matter", as if you are being there like a parent reading to a child, helping them through, and then, hopefully, by the time they are on chapter three, or whatever, they might be fine. In the Penguin classics it is all annotated and you can turn to the back. I think some kind of children's classics which do not make the child feel uncomfortable because they think: "I do not like this. This is boring. This is hard", but which say, "Yes, I know it is bit heavy going at the moment, but just carry on. Try." I think this will be important because I think we have a heritage in the English language of the most wonderful children's classics which are almost being forgotten about. In Woolworths, when I was a child, you used to get children's classics, rather nastily produced, for two and six pence, and you nearly always got given one at Christmas, but if you look in Woolworths or its equivalents now, no. Q216 Rosemary McKenna: There has been an increase in the use of libraries and books since the advent of the People's Network. Whether one is as a result of the other is something we can discuss. As a former teacher ‑ I taught for 20 years ‑ I am now buying books for my granddaughter and I am astonished at the sheer volume, range and number of books that are available for children. Do you not think the future looks very good for libraries and for books and authors, because more and more young people are reading? Ms Wilson: Absolutely. It is extraordinary, this research in interest, and it is also in schools, because they have tried the literacy arm. I know many authors have big problems with this, but they have struggled hard to introduce children to many more titles, even though there is perhaps not quite enough time on the curriculum for them to read all the way through the books, but, yes, I do think it is a very exciting time for libraries. I have not yet met a children's librarian who is not really delighted if somebody says, "My granddaughter likes rabbits. Is there a book that will take her interest?", or, "My grandson is ten and says he hates books, but he likes football. Is there anything there?" There is always that expertise and that determination to help which I think is very touching and very lovely but sometimes, sadly, in bookshops the staff have not the time or maybe not the specialist knowledge because often people in bookshops, if they are in charge of children's books, are only there until they have done their six months stint and then can get on to the literary fiction, or whatever they want to do, whereas mostly children's librarians are chosen to be children's librarians, and that is great. Q217 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Apart from the pleasure of having your company, you are living proof that children want to read books, and I think that is wonderful. Ms Wilson: Thank you very much indeed. It is been most enjoyable. Witnesses: Rt Hon Lord McIntosh of Haringey, a Member of the House of Lords, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Mr Stephen Twigg, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Schools, Department for Education and Skills, and Rt Hon Nick Raynsford, a Member of the House, Minister for State for Local Government and the Regions, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, examined. Q218 Chairman: Good morning. I am not quite sure what the collective noun for ministers is? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: A gaggle! Chairman: Whatever it is, you are it! Thank you very much indeed for coming. We are going to get a lot of value out of you, I hope. Could I make an apology right at the beginning? I may have to leave before the end because of the unfortunate coinciding of these sittings with the business on the floor of the House. I want to be in the Chamber from the beginning of the Mental Capacity Bill? Q219 Ms Shipley: Ministers, the Audit Commission, when it came in front of us - Minister for Education, you are going to be particularly interested in this - gave evidence - and, I am sure you will agree, the Audit Commission is one of our most accurate repositories for this sort of information - that the decision was taken by central government to devolve money to schools to buy back school library services, and we were told that there was a very uneven pattern of identified expenditure on school library services in section 52 statements and that schools are not buying back into school library services even though the money was there devolved for them to do so. We know that you have had this raised with you recently, because sitting behind you are the Museums, Library and Archive Council and the Local Government Association are putting on record that they have been raising this with you a lot certainly in the last six months. What progress have you made on it? Mr Twigg: My understanding is that the Audit Commission evidence was not quite right, and we have had discussions with the Audit Commission since that the evidence provided by section 52 returns does not necessarily provide the basis for the conclusion that they then drew. I obviously accept that the provision is not consistent across the country. Part of the purpose of delegation is that those decisions are made by schools at school level. Q220 Ms Shipley: Does it bother you at all, Minister, that there is a very large number, it is not specific at the moment but there are a very significant number who are not buying back in the way that government envisaged that they would? Mr Twigg: I think my answer to that, Debra, would depend on what they were doing instead. If schools are providing alternative ways of ensuring there is a good library service within the school and promoting literacy and the love of books in other ways, I would be more relaxed about it. If they are not providing those alternatives, I would be very concerned about it. Q221 Ms Shipley: So are they? Mr Twigg: Ofsted has a function there school by school to determine whether that is happening. I am not convinced there is a wide‑spread issue of schools not promoting good library services and the love of books within the school. Q222 Ms Shipley: What are the Ofsted figures? Mr Twigg: I do not have the figures to hand. I do not know whether we collate figures, but I will check that, Debra, and write to the Committee. Q223 Ms Shipley: You have just based your whole argument on Ofsted's figures, but you do not know what they are and you are not sure that they exist? Mr Twigg: No, I did not base it on that. What I based it on is that we delegate these things to schools for a good reason, because we think schools are the best people to make these decisions, not us. Q224 Ms Shipley: I understood your argument. You based the outcome of that argument on Ofsted, but you do not know whether Ofsted actually has the figures? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We do have statistics on the overall number of pupils who are funded by the school library service, and that has declined from 85 per cent to 63 per cent, but, as Steven says, that is not the only way of providing library services in schools. Q225 Ms Shipley: What interests me is that we have very significant numbers of schools, not a minority who are doing a bad job or have forgotten about it but a very significant number, who are not buying back into library services and we have half our library services not up to scratch in the country on the Audit Commission's research, roughly half not up to scratch and not getting sufficient funding, and we have schools not buying back into the service. Do you have the evidence that can tell you which are buying in, which are not; what are they doing instead and all of that? Do you have it? Mr Twigg: What we certainly know, and Andrew has given you the figure, is that there has been a decline since the decision to delegate in terms of the coverage of schools by school library services. Q226 Ms Shipley: I am aware of that, but that is not what I asked you, Minister? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I gave figures on the coverage of pupils, which is a pretty appropriate figure. Q227 Ms Shipley: Is that area by area, borough by borough? Mr Twigg: No, 63 per cent is a national figure. Q228 Ms Shipley: Is that broken down area by area? Can you identify where schools and libraries are doing an excellent job or not and whether they are buying back in or not and whether that has effects or not? Mr Twigg: I think we can identify which the 63 per cent are. Within that we are, as I just said, reliant on Ofsted for judgments that are made about whether schools are doing an effective job or not, whether they buy into the school library service or not. I think, in a sense, looking at the overall figure is helpful in one respect, but in a sense is not that helpful because there will be schools that are buying into a service that maybe still are not doing a very good job, whereas there will be other schools that are not buying into that service that are making their own decisions and their own investments and are doing a very good job of promoting the love of reading and all the other benefits that a library brings. Q229 Ms Shipley: If I looked at the Ofsted results, would I be able to tell which local libraries are receiving funding via or linked to schools? Mr Twigg: No, you would not, because Ofsted report on schools every so often. They do not report on schools all of the time. We are introducing a new framework for Ofsted where Ofsted will be going to schools more frequently, so it may be possible, as part of that, to look at Ofsted's report into schools and have information that is more up to date, but Ofsted is only one tool that we have available to us. Q230 Ms Shipley: Given that answer, which I think is absolutely accurate, I cannot understand how you said Ofsted gives us that information because you said Ofsted does not? Mr Twigg: Ofsted gives us the information, but you could not rely on Ofsted to give an up‑to‑date 2004 picture for every school, because they do not go into every school every year, and even under the new framework they will not. Q231 Ms Shipley: So we have a large pot of money delegated by government to be spent by school libraries, some of which is not but some is, but we have no way of tracking it. Mr Twigg: I do not understand what you mean "dedicated to school libraries". Those are decisions that are made at the school level. Q232 Ms Shipley: Government devolve money to schools to buy back school services. Do we know that is happening? The answer, "No, we have no way of tracking it"? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The figures that I gave you, the percentage figures of the overall numbers of pupils covered by the school library service, can only have been produced school by school. There is no other way of producing them. Therefore, it is known which schools are‑‑‑ Q233 Ms Shipley: But you have just told me that you could not tell me borough by borough? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is not necessarily that these figures have been published, but the figures can only be produced by schools reporting. Q234 Ms Shipley: Can you produce them or not? Mr Twigg: It may be my misunderstanding. I thought you asked about the quality school by school, to which I said it would vary and we do not necessarily know the figures. Q235 Ms Shipley: No, what I want to know is where is the money going, basically. Where is the money going, that pot of money that was devolved for schools to buy back library services? Where is it going? Do you have a way of tracking that? Mr Twigg: We certainly know which local education authorities continue to have a schools library service, which the vast majority do, and we know from the figures that we have already given you what the coverage is of schools that are using that service. I think I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to ask me. Q236 Ms Shipley: Let me try one last time. Central government has devolved money to schools to buy back library services. Yes? Mr Twigg: It works differently in primary schools than in secondary schools. There is delegation and devolution. It is not exactly the same in primary schools as it was in secondary schools. Q237 Ms Shipley: They are two different models. Mr Twigg: They are different. Q238 Ms Shipley: One each? Mr Twigg: Yes. Q239 Ms Shipley: The devolved model. Are you able to track that? Yes or no? Mr Twigg: I do not understand what you mean by "tracked". Q240 Ms Shipley: Once money has been devolved to schools to buy back library services, can you tell if they have done this or not? Mr Twigg: Yes, we can, and that is the figure that Andrew has given that I have repeated. Q241 Ms Shipley: The other word you used? Mr Twigg: Is to delegate, and that gives far more freedom to the school. Q242 Ms Shipley: When you have delegated money to buy back library services, can you tell whether they have done that? Mr Twigg: Yes, we can tell whether they have done it, and some do and some do not. The purpose of delegation is that that decision is then made at the school level. Q243 Ms Shipley: If I table a question asking you to do that, you can answer fully? Mr Twigg: I will do my very best. Ms Shipley: Would you try. Thank you. Q244 Chairman: She gave you a hard time, did she not, Stephen? Mr Twigg: I realise how lucky I am in the DfES Select Committee. Ms Shipley: We used to leaflet the streets of London together! Q245 Derek Wyatt: Following a little bit of that, are librarians up or down in the school system? Are there more librarians than there were ten years ago or less? Mr Twigg: I do not have that answer, but I can provide that answer to the Committee. Q246 Derek Wyatt: Can you find that out? Mr Twigg: Of course. Q247 Derek Wyatt: In Building Schools for the Future where schools will be open maybe 18 hours a day, possibly longer, but 18 hours is a break‑through, in my area it is the poorest schools that we want opened, but, of course, they have the poorest libraries and the poorest facilities and they are a long way from the central library. How is that going to connect in the library system? Mr Twigg: One of the exemplar designs for Building Schools for the Future includes the possibility of public libraries being co‑located with schools. We have had a recent example of a school funded through the private finance initiative in the London Borough of Croydon, Ashburton School, where the decision was taken locally to not only rebuild the school but to re‑provide a public library on the school site, and that serves a deprived part of Croydon. Building Schools for the Future, I think, is one of the ways in which we can promote greater library use, whether that is of school library facilities being opened up, which is one possibility through Extended Schools, or whether it is the Croydon type of example of a public library being on school grounds. Q248 Derek Wyatt: That is good to know, but that is the only example you know? Mr Twigg: It is the only example that I have got. Building Schools for the Future, of course, is only just starting, and this is one of the exemplar designs that we are promoting. Q249 Derek Wyatt: Nick, turning to the Thames Gateway, which is going to be a very large new city really, in the sections on 106 and the infrastructure claims where do libraries figure in all this. Are libraries non‑league in terms of infrastructure? Where does it feature? Mr Raynsford: The crucial issue here, which I was tempted almost to interrupt in the previous the dialogue with Debra Shipley, is the discretion that is left to local authorities. We believe very strongly that local authorities should not be unduly subject to input controls, which are only a measure of resources, not of outcomes, and we do believe that authorities should have discretion to determine local priorities. In negotiating a local section 106 agreement we think it is right that the authority itself should be free to determine whether the priority is to do with additional educational facilities and, if so, whether there should be a library component to that; whether there should be cultural benefits and, again, if so, whether there should be a library component, whether there should be affordable housing or what other public goods should be sought. Obviously, it relates to the type of development because it has to be relevant to that development, but this a matter on which local authorities are better placed than central government to determine. Q250 Derek Wyatt: Would your office have a record of how many section 106s have ever produced new libraries? Mr Raynsford: I doubt it very much, because we really do not try to collect vast amounts of information purely for the sake of information. I can inquire, but I think it is very unlikely. Q251 Derek Wyatt: In the way in which information is going to be developed over the next 20 years, it is clear, not necessarily that there is going to be a transference from books, but books are not going to be the only system of getting knowledge; the internet is going to play a bigger part. Would it make more sense, rather than have three ministers, to have one of you in charge of this and only one of you? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Is not the library service rather fortunate that it has three such benevolent godfathers? Q252 Derek Wyatt: I would not say that, no, because it dissipates the system. You were not here earlier, but in my poorest areas the libraries are open the least and had the worst books and the least internet facility. If there was a priority, you would make sure that one of you there would say, "This is not acceptable", but I find it very hard to put where the one is? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have read every one of the written submissions made to you, a huge volume of written submissions with, I did not count, but something like 50 local authorities describing to you the way in which their library services are run, the way in which they have been improved, the way in which there are longer hours and more visits. Clearly, the ones who are less good have not replied to you in the same way. Q253 Derek Wyatt: Kent County Council. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am not claiming that there are not library authorities who are less good ‑ that is the nature of the beast ‑ but I do not think you can generalise from one authority, as you have been doing. Q254 Derek Wyatt: Because it is my authority? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes. We are tempted to do that. My authority is‑‑‑ Q255 Derek Wyatt: My one question is: would it not be better if there was just one of you in charge of this system? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No, my Department has responsibility under the 1964 Public Library Act to see that there is a library service which is comprehensive and efficient. The funding of libraries, because of devolution to local authorities, is the responsibility of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. School libraries, local authorities provide them in many cases, but it is Stephen Twigg who has been answering questions, very properly, about that. I have seen no sign of conflict between any of us on any of these issues. Mr Raynsford: Could I add on the local government financing side that in preparing for this session I found it very interesting to see that the average increase in spending on libraries over the period since we came into government has almost exactly matched the average increase in government grant to local authorities over that period; so there will be no evidence at a macro level ‑ and I accept that is across local government as a whole ‑ of libraries being disadvantaged by the current financing regime. There may well be within individual barriers, and that may be as a result of a deliberate choice by a local authority, or it may be for other factors, other reasons, but one thing I would stress is that the grant distribution formula does attach significant weight to deprivation to ensure that those areas that do have greater needs receive a larger proportion of grant. Only yesterday evening I noticed in the London Evening Standard a diatribe prompted by, I think, the London Borough of Richmond on Thames, which is the wealthiest London Borough, that it was not getting nearly as much grant as the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, which is one of the most deprived and which, incidentally, is probably one of the real trail‑blazers in terms of remodelling its library service. So I think the general pattern of local government funding is antipathetic to creative action in relation to libraries. Q256 Rosemary McKenna: Good Morning, Ministers. I see that we are really getting to the core of things this morning, because what you are saying is that local decision‑making is absolutely crucial. As a former local government councillor, I agree with that. We do want to do that, but, at the same time, the library community feels it does not have the clout. Everybody loves it, it is valued, but it does not have the clout. I am wondering how we can improve that situation. One of the things that we do in Scotland is slightly different. We have an organisation which almost mirrors the MLA, but does not quite because it is just to do with the good libraries. That body is funded by the Scottish Executive with pilot project money which comes from government, and they use that money to develop best practice by examples, not just by looking at best practice, but actually saying, "You can bid for this money to produce something that is absolutely first-class and we will then let the other authorities know about it", but solely for libraries. Is that something you would consider? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is something that we do. When we published Framework for the Future in February 2003, the next thing after that was not just to leave it to moulder on the shelves but to fund, with a funding of £3 million, an action plan to do exactly what you are describing. That action plan has certainly been given to you in written evidence, and I am sure that it has been described to you by MLA this morning. Not only that, that is in its second year now and it is doing all the things you have talked about, but I have found a small pot of money to go further than that: because I acknowledge that there are places like those that Derek Wyatt is describing where the library services have fallen behind, and I have set up an improvement programme which is designed specifically to go into those library authorities most in need of help to provide them with peer review assistance from librarians in very good authorities and to provide back‑up assistance from people outside in such areas as marketing, design, research, book procurement and so on. Q257 Rosemary McKenna: Is that money channelled through MLA? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes. Q258 Rosemary McKenna: It goes through them? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That is right. Q259 Rosemary McKenna: And libraries bid for it? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, Nick would not allow me to pay money directly to local authorities. Q260 Rosemary McKenna: No. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Quite right too. Q261 Rosemary McKenna: I understand that, but that is only in its second year. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, and the improvement programme is only in its first year. Q262 Rosemary McKenna: So it is happening now? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is going very well. Q263 Rosemary McKenna: Because I know that it does work. When authorities have to compete they have to put up really good innovative programmes so that they actually access the money that they want to develop. You feel that there is a lot going on? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, but it is not only money. It is not the case that the worst library authorities‑‑‑ Q264 Rosemary McKenna: Have the less money? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: ‑‑‑are the worst funded. It is a matter of how you use the money that is significant. Q265 Rosemary McKenna: Can I ask Steven about school library standards? Do you have a set of standards that apply particularly to schools? Mr Twigg: No, we do not. What we seek to do is to win hearts and minds, and it links, in a sense, Rosemary, to your previous question and to the earlier questioning from Debra. A lot more of this is delegated or devolved into school budgets, which gives schools a lot more choice about how they use that money. What we think is most important is that we promote high levels of literacy and numeracy, and so forth, in schools, and different schools will choose to interpret that in different ways. We think it is right that they do that and we have inspection mechanisms in place to ensure that. So we do not have a basic set of standards about the number of books, or whatever, because it will depend on the particular circumstances of a school. Q266 Rosemary McKenna: Are they part of the inspection mechanism? Mr Twigg: Yes. Q267 Rosemary McKenna: Is that Ofsted, as a rule? Mr Twigg: Yes, it is part of the role of Ofsted. Q268 Rosemary McKenna: To look at what is provided within‑‑‑ Mr Twigg: Yes. Every year Ofsted will inspect the progress on literacy and numeracy strategies, for example, and clearly an important component of that is the work going on school by school, including by libraries. Ofsted are about to publish a new report on reading; and clearly the role of school libraries would be critical in that report. Q269 Rosemary McKenna: Is there a librarian attached to every school library? Mr Twigg: I am going to get the exact figures for the numbers of librarians. It is always fatal to reply anecdotally. I would say, in my experience of secondary schools, certainly. With primary schools it is going to vary according to the size of the school. Q270 Rosemary McKenna: Would you consider possibly having a school setting standards, because it has worked in Scotland? We did set standards. It is part of the mechanism and it has improved tremendously. Mr Twigg: I am a great believer in learning from what works in other places and learning from what has happened in Scotland with devolution, or before devolution, and if there is a set of standards that fit. Q271 Rosemary McKenna: Even before devolution the standards were set and the money transferred? Mr Twigg: I am happy to look at that, because increasingly the relationship between the Department and schools and local government and schools is one that is based on seeking to raise quality through sets of standards and inspection, not necessarily through the budget. Q272 Rosemary McKenna: When I started teaching in the early seventies the school I started teaching in did not have a library at all, and that is the change, but some schools are very much further behind than are others. Mr Twigg: I am very struck from visits to schools that when schools are refurbished or rebuilt a lot of resource goes into providing a decent library, and I think, going back to Derek's earlier question around Building Schools for the Future, the opportunity that we have with that programme for every secondary school in the country over the next 15 years is enormous. The particular question was about links between schools, the public library service and the opening up of schools, but, simply in terms of what is available within the school, having that facility there would be very important. Q273 Rosemary McKenna: One more question on allowing the authorities to make the decision. Were you not very disappointed that ten per cent of authorities are charging for access to the People's Network, and is there anything you can do about that? Mr Raynsford: This, I think, is a very interesting issue that goes right to the nub of local discretion versus national prescription. When we provided funding - and there was very substantial funding provided from government as well as from the lottery - to fund the development of the People's Network I think there was a hope that this would be provided free of charge. A number of authorities have highlighted the extent to which the usage of this facility, which has been a huge success, has gone way beyond a dispassionate search for truth and that some of the other services that libraries offer are subject to charging and, therefore, it would be curious if there were no charge in respect of such use of the internet. I myself do not want to make a judgment on this, but I do think it is important that every local authority should be thinking about the extent to which its policy on charging may deter people from using a service which should be as accessible as possible. If there is evidence that it is, we clearly hope that they would reconsider. Q274 Rosemary McKenna: It certainly was about universal access, and charging just denies the principle. Ten per cent is a small number, but it might affect a lot of people who are really disadvantaged because they have they cannot afford it. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It was not an issue which came to the fore in the Tavistock Institute Research on the People's Network. Maybe we ought to ask them more precisely what the effect would be of those authorities who charged. Rosemary McKenna: Yes, I do think it is worthwhile looking at, because it would be distressing to think that all of that money that went into creating universal access, even if ten per cent of people--- It is a question that we should be looking at. Chairman: That was brisk and vigorous. Thank you very much, gentleman, an example of joined up government. Thank you. Mr Doran: I am sorry Chairman, can I make one small point? Chairman: In that case Alan will have to take the Chair. In the absence of the Chairman, Alan Keen was called to the Chair
Q275 Mr Doran: Picking up on Rosemary's issue, I was a Scot and I thought that one the Scot was enough for the questioning of three English Ministers! We were given some figures on the effects of charging by the MLA, and they said that in Buckinghamshire the research had shown that usage figures had dropped by as much as 40 per cent once charges were introduced. That seems to me more than curious, to use your words, Nick? Mr Raynsford: I would have thought that was exactly the same for that information being brought to the attention of the local authority and, indeed, when the Audit Commission will be conducting its comprehensive performance assessment on the authority. Q276 Mr Doran: When we were questioning the MLA earlier I asked what the source was, because I am not familiar with the English bible of legislation, and I am told it is the 1964 Act. If we were permitted to free access it would be a fairly simple process at some stage, at some opportune moment, to make this one of the free services, if we were serious. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We do, of course, have public library standards, and the usage of library services is critical to the achievement of those standards. If in any given authority the usage of the People's Network services decline, that will affect their achievement and their standards. Q277 Mr Doran: Are you saying that government intervention through the standards would negate the need for a change in legislation. You could effectively do it by diktat? Mr Raynsford: Could I perhaps comment on this. I do believe very strongly that a user perspective on services is terribly important, and we are encouraging the Audit Commission, which, as you know, is responsible for the inspection of local authorities and the development of the Comprehensive Performance Assessment, to give greater focus in the 2005 CPA to user perspectives. In the case that you have quoted, where there is clear evidence of user dissatisfaction or of a major fall off in usage as a result of charges, this would seem to me to be a very relevant and material fact, and that ought to be, I think, the method for driving change rather than central government dictating, which has got dangers of discouraging local initiative and discouraging local authorities from trying to join up services in ways that are not possible if you have very clearly defined income streams, and there is an expectation that every penny allocated for a particular issue is spent on that issue. Q278 Mr Doran: I can understand that, but what we are talking about here is the local government initiative militating directly against what seem to be the fundamental principles of the whole programme? Mr Raynsford: But on this, as on other comparable issues - and it is brought to my attention all the time, as you may imagine, with a request that I intervene where an authority appears to be acting in way that is not totally consistent with central government objectives - and one has to give that caveat because there are always exceptions, in general my reply is that it is right for local authorities to take those decisions in the light of local circumstances and to be accountable for them, but I would expect the bodies responsible for inspecting and examining the way the authority behaves to have that information brought to their attention, and, if there is an impact on outcomes, then that is a very serious issue indeed. Q279 Mr Doran: Such as a 40 per cent drop in usage? Mr Raynsford: Yes, exactly. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Or, indeed, a drop in satisfaction with the services. Q280 Mr Doran: We have got two potential routes: Andrew's standards revision possibly and the Audit Commission intervention? Mr Raynsford: Yes. Mr Doran: That is fine. Q281 Alan Keen: What I was going to ask before the Chairman went was this. We have had the usual discussions about whether libraries should be about books and is access to the internet an intrusion into what libraries should be. We have been through that; we have been through the different quality and the differences in the quality of provision in different areas and different libraries. The internet obviously is a replacement for what used to be the reference section of the libraries. It is pretty obvious, I think, to us all that one of the greatest worries is the fact that there is a great chunk of young people and people who would be life‑long learners as well who have no access to the internet; and some come to libraries and get that, but there is a tremendous gap there, is there not? We know there is a need for it, but we have not addressed the problem seriously. We have talked about it and thought about it and worried about it; we have not addressed it. What plans have you got for making sure that we get all families access to the internet possibly from their homes? This is something we have covered this morning before you came in. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If you divide up those people who have access to the internet, there are those who have it at home, who are generally better off people or people with young children, there are those who have it at work, who have to be senior enough to use it for their own purposes because those who are simply screen‑based probably do not, and here are those who have access through public libraries; and that is what the People's Network does and it is enormously important; but you are quite right, Chairman, that it does not bridge the gap, the digital divide, between those who have access to the internet or not. The fact that we have something like 30 per cent of library users using the internet is wonderful to me, but it does not bridge the gap entirely. What is astonishing to me is how well books are holding up when you think about the alternative ways that people have of spending their leisure time, with television, radio and videos, with on‑line activities, computer games and so on. Library book loans have indeed been declining, although I think we are starting to make progress levelling that off, as we have levelled off library visits, but book buying has increased very substantially as well. In other words, reading is healthy, and I think it is important that we should look at the work of public libraries in context. Q282 Alan Keen: Everything you have said is absolutely right. It is that gap that exists that libraries have been trying to fill, but they can only fill that with people who actually enter the door to the library. They cannot get to the people outside. The internet can provide a tremendous part of our education, and everybody in this room probably uses it for that purpose at some time. It is that chunk of people who have no access, and it has to be addressed in this inquiry. It is addressed at libraries, but if we do not address the large group of people who do not visit libraries and who do not have access, we are really not doing our duty properly. What plans, what discussions have taken place to fill that void? Mr Twigg: It is the exchange that I had with Derek Wyatt earlier on. Part of it is the role that schools themselves can play in providing access to facilities, not only for their own students but for other pupils from other schools, and potentially for the wider community. So I think the Extended Schools channel is one way. Another is Learn Direct and the Learn Direct centres that provide some opportunities. The other programme that we have, which is a DfES programme through the Learning and Skills Council, is city learning centres that have been very much focused in some of the areas of greatest deprivation to open up various learning opportunities focused on new technology for the community as a whole. I have visited many of these centres, particularly here in London, and have seen the way in which it is giving chances to people who are much older, who perhaps have never used a computer before and who certainly cannot afford to have internet access at home. Those are the sorts of programmes that make a real difference. The other thing I would say is that there is a voluntary sector role here as well. I have seen in my own area in Enfield Age Concern setting up opportunities for older people to use school facilities. They are not run by the school, they are run in fact in this particular instance by Age Concern, and elderly people are going in and being "Silver Surfers", as the club is called. There are all sorts of different ways of doing it. Q283 Alan Keen: Before you and your colleagues go, a few years ago, we were told in the States that everything was moving towards convergence of computers and television. That never came about. We were misled completely. Is that some extension of the television set? Is that the way to aim at getting everyone with the ability to get through to the internet, because it has to be addressed in this inquiry because no‑one else is doing it? If you three are not thinking about it, no‑one else is. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have been caught forecasting this before. You are absolutely right that it has been predicted that it is going to happen in our lifetime for a very long time, and it has not happened. I think there are now signs that there are some parts of the world where broadband of a sufficient power, sufficient speed, and I am talking now about five, six megabytes, is starting to become available, Careera in Japan are examples of that. Once you have that you really have the possibility of convergence, and it happens in Hull of all places. Alan Keen: If I was Debra, I would be saying, "What are you doing about it?" Ms Shipley: I am getting you trained up there, Alan! Q284 Alan Keen: What are you doing about it? It is interesting to hear what is happening in other parts of the world. Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You should have a fourth minister from DTI, because it is their responsibility and you are welcome to question them on it, but I worked with the DTI on the digital switch over programme and certainly we and DTI are enormously supportive of broadband and wish to see the barriers brought down. Alan Keen: Thank you very much indeed. You have helped us a great deal. |