Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 147)
WEDNESDAY 26 MAY 2004
LIEUTENANT GENERAL
ANTHONY PALMER,
REAR ADMIRAL
SIMON GOODALL,
COLONEL DAVID
ECCLES AND
MR JULIAN
MILLER
Q140 Rachel Squire: Do you make a
point of assuring all new recruits that that will be the process?
Colonel Eccles: Absolutely. We
lay out our policies on this and complaints procedure and how
they can deal with it and stress very strongly the confidentiality
aspect of the people to whom they speak.
Rear Admiral Goodall: The key
point here is that it is endemic in our process to weed out bullies.
We do not wish to have bullies, either in the training system
or in the services. Therefore our approach to this is at the core
of what we are trying to do and it is very much in our interest
to ensure that people report that bullying and that we protect
them during that process. Perhaps one of the indicators is that
in certain areas—and we provided some figures in answer
to a question—there is evidence that there are more complaints
about bullying and arguably that is a very important point: people
are more willing to come forward.
Q141 Rachel Squire: One hopes that
the increase in complaints is due to the fact that people have
more confidence.
Rear Admiral Goodall: This is
a very difficult statistic to manage, but I would have confidence.
When we look at the nature of those complaints, they were dealt
with at relatively low levels in the organisation, indicating
that these were satisfactorily resolved. This is trying to find
the boundary between what bullying is and not. I believe that
we are making strenuous efforts in that. As the general says,
no system is perfect, and I do think it is something which will
probably be a focus of your attention on visits. It is a very
important aspect on which we would require some support, to tell
us we are right in our thoughts.
Q142 Rachel Squire: Certainly there
has been a large rise in complaints made and upheld at the Army
Foundation College in Harrogate and one has to ask whether that
means there is under-reporting elsewhere or are there certain
characteristics about Harrogate which lead to a much larger increase
in the reporting than has happened elsewhere?
General Palmer: That latter point.
Rear Admiral Goodall: I also think—and
I do not know, because I do not know the detail of Harrogate and
I would have to defer to my colleagues—that in that environment
we probably do err, in an area of doubt as to whether it is bullying
or just robust treatment, on the side of that being an example
of bullying. The line is very fine in certain areas and it is
important that we demonstrate to our training team that bullying
is not allowed, even if it is marginal.
Colonel Eccles: The important
point is that the Army Foundation College in Harrogate is exclusively
for young soldiers and therefore, if it is humanly possible, even
greater emphasis is laid on the importance of reporting every
single little incident. I suspect that is part of the answer to
why the numbers appear to be high there.
Q143 Rachel Squire: It will be interesting
when we visit Harrogate to see whether Harrogate has some distinctive
characteristics which have led to that or whether it is just people
being more confident that they can report and it will be kept
confidential.
Colonel Eccles: Absolutely.
Chairman: I shall pose three questions,
but as we need to finish in a few minutes perhaps you could answer
them in writing in some detail. Where does the TA fit into all
this? I am not going to extrapolate on the basis of the British
Army's problems and the American Army's problems with the National
Guard, but does the regime of training, which is very limited
in the Territorial Army, accommodate the kind of inculcation of
values which you are seeking to undertake in the regular Army?
The same question would apply to the Navy and the Air Force. The
other question is, and in this current climate it is a rather
politically incorrect question, about the fact that people who
are accused have rights. Careers can be destroyed on the basis
of malevolent complaints. There are many professions, not least
teaching, where careers have been destroyed. If the careers of
head teachers have been resuscitated, it is after enormous psychological
damage. It would be only correct of us to ask what reassurances
you can give that whilst you are fervently rooting out bullies
and protecting the rights of young trainees, that is done in such
a way that the accused is treated absolutely fairly and if the
allegations prove to be insubstantial, that there is no stain
on that person's character. That is not in any way condoning bullying,
but one has to be absolutely fair. My third question is that I
understand no records are kept on a service basis, at least not
in the Army, of complaints made and the nature of their resolution.
How are lessons learned and implemented from complaints and incidents
in the absence of such a record? To answer those three questions
would take us a long, long time and we shall publish the response
which I hope will be a really very detailed on, not just your
written response, but any documentation you can provide, because
each of these questions deserves a serious answer.[17]
Q144 Mr Viggers: Are you content
that the formal complaints have to be made to a recruit's commanding
officer? How does the role of the empowered officer fit in with
that? Are you confident that the empowered officer will be sufficiently
independent and listen objectively to recruits' concerns?
General Palmer: The empowered
officer is relatively recently being introduced following one
of the DOC recommendations, so we shall have to wait to see how
it is working. I think it is something which has been welcomed
throughout the training organisation and it is being brought into
effect and all recruits should carry a card saying who this empowered
officer is. Obviously if they do not know how to contact him,
there is no point having him. We shall probably have to wait another
couple of months at least before we can assess whether it is the
right thing to do. The whole point about the empowered officer
is that he has access to the commanding officer of the unit and
therefore has bypassed the training team. The commanding officer
is overall responsible for discipline, welfare, everything which
happens within that barracks and I am absolutely sure that is
right and that he is the person who should be taking the complaint
from the empowered officer or from anyone else who is making it.
Q145 Mr Viggers: Will the empowered
officers have training, will they be introduced to the recruits,
will the recruits be encouraged to meet them, even in the absence
of a complaint?
Colonel Eccles: Yes.
Q146 Mr Viggers: What thought has
been given to empowering civilians from outside the chain of command?
General Palmer: Not much.
Colonel Eccles: There is the occasional
empowered officer who may be a civilian, for example a retired
officer who is working in an appointment within a training establishment
or something like that. Given the circumstances of the place,
that may be the case.
Q147 Mr Viggers: I am sure we will
have a chance to watch the empowered officers coming into place
and monitoring them as we go along.
General Palmer: Indeed.
Chairman: Gentlemen, thank you very much.
We have embarked upon one of the most difficult inquiries we have
undertaken and probably one of the most thorough. You know exactly
why: we have to do our duty, because we as a parliamentary committee
have a duty, the same duty of care to the men and women who are
serving in our Armed Forces, the same duty of care as you have.
It might come from a rather different angle, but that commitment
is there for us too. We shall be meeting time and time again.
Admiral, you can leave your briefing book behind if you like,
though probably the MoD will not allow you to do that. Please
go through it and send us what you wish. Thank you very, very
much for your attendance.
17 Ev 290, Ev 296, Ev 303 Back
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