Examination of Witnesses (Questions 900
- 905)
WEDNESDAY 10 NOVEMBER 2004
BRIGADIER MUNGO
MELVIN OBE, GROUP
CAPTAIN STEPHEN
HOWARD AND
REAR ADMIRAL
SIMON GOODALL
Q900 Mike Gapes: Even in the Army? Group
Captain Howard: Even in the Army, yes, because I think
it is explained to them very early on that this is the system;
that if they have an issue that they do not want to discuss with
their immediate Chain of Command, ie the corporal, the sergeant
within their own little world—because within a training
environment that will collapse very quickly to their circle of
friends and the corporal—that there were all sorts of issues
that were usually resolved by a quick phone call home, or refer
them across to the WRVS lady for a cup of tea and a cuddle as
much as anything else. It was almost a mother replacement, particularly
with the very young recruits. But there was no fear to go and
speak to somebody outside that Chain of Command, which the earlier
reports did identify. Brigadier Melvin: I did
not take part in these visits but I think there has to be a bit
of balance to this. I have served in the Army for 30 years and
have commanded every level from platoon equivalent up to corps
level, and maybe I have been very lucky in serving in the Royal
Engineers and others, but the idea in the Army that individuals
cannot approach an officer—that impression being given by
my colleague here—is just not true. It may have been an
impression gained during the visits, but I spent a great deal
of my time as a Sub-Unit Commander and Unit Commander, as every
good Commanding Officer has done, across the three Services, dealing
with individuals. You always get individual cases in any unit
across the Services, who have to be dealt with by officers and
absolutely rightly so. It is Chain of Command responsibility and
officers have to deal with these issues. Rear Admiral
Goodall: I would agree with that. I think it is not the
colour of the uniform, it is the people that matter, and of course
all of us officers essentially are the same under the skin and
we are in the people business. So I would agree with Mungo's point
that it is not an institutional thing based on a Service.
Q901 Mike Gapes: What evidence is
there that a recruit perceives an Empowered Officer as being outside
the Chain of Command? Group Captain Howard:
They are told it on day one and they are given—
Q902 Mike Gapes: I am talking about
perception, not what they are told. Rear Admiral Goodall:
That it is a very interesting question because I suppose that
is something that we have, to a degree, taken for granted. But
it is probably the behaviour of the officer concerned, that that
individual is seen to have—and the behaviour of the CO—direct
right of access to the CO, and is part of the organisation and
is seen to be outside the training team Chain of Command. So I
think it is actually the behaviour on the ground. Again, this
goes back, in a way, to the point that Mr Jones made about using
the welfare services. It is all very well to read about them but
if the behaviour of the CO is to be such as to be talking to these
people and linked with these people consistently throughout the
days and weeks, then those people get associated in the individual's
mind with somebody who has right of access to the top, without
going through the normal channels. Brigadier Melvin:
The measure of the system is the trust in which the individuals
are held, not by the Chain of Command but by the individuals to
whom they should have recourse, and a simple measure is that if
these people are the conduit for these concerns and complaints
then they are being trusted. If nobody comes to the Empowered
Officers that is the simple measure that they are not being seen
to be trusted.
Q903 Mike Gapes: Have you any data? Brigadier
Melvin: I am afraid we do not have any data on that issue.
Q904 Mike Gapes: It would be very
interesting for us to know because if you have these people and
they are in institutions all over the place and nobody is going
to them, yet on the other hand somebody gets lots of contact because
of an approach, a style, a way of working, and then somebody else
is seen as remote, it would be very useful to make comparisons. Rear
Admiral Goodall: It would be a very useful piece of work
that also may help us to identify good practice. We will do that. Mike
Gapes: You will do that in your 2005 appraisal!
Q905 Chairman: And when they advertise
who the Empowered Officers are, could you give us some advice
on the photographs to use, Brigadier? We saw one who looked like
a Welsh front row forward, and no doubt a wonderful man but I
think he is the last person on earth I would seek advice or help
from! Rear Admiral Goodall: You would not want
to scrum down with him! Chairman: Terrifying! Thank
you very much. We have a few more questions but we will write
to you.
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