Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1140
- 1159)
WEDNESDAY 1 DECEMBER 2004 (AFTERNOON)
MR DES
JAMES, MRS
DOREEN JAMES,
MR JAMES
COLLINSON, MRS
YVONNE COLLINSON,
MR GEOFF
GRAY AND
MRS DIANE
GRAY
Q1140 Mr Hancock: They are still
there?
Mr Gray: No, they were sitting
in Glasgow. They were sent to Surrey Police who then brought them
to ourselves and I have had to sign for them.
Q1141 Mr Hancock: Did those letters
in any way open up a new line for you?
Mr Gray: Those letters were of
a typical 17-year-old; they were letters to a pen pal in Australia,
and it showed him as a very healthy young man, a typical 17-year-old.
So if those letters had been produced in front of the Coroner
it would have then shown the Coroner that he is a typical young
17-year-old lad.
Q1142 Mr Hancock: Were they written
very close to the time of his death?
Mrs Gray: They were actually letters
from the girl, the correspondence; he had been writing to the
girl and these were replies back and she was replying to his questions
and things like that, and they went right up until almost a few
weeks before he died.
Q1143 Chairman: I am told by our
Army and Air Force advisers that the standard death casualty procedure
is to take an inventory of all the deceased's effects, so it should
have been done; it is not whether it should have been done,
it should have been done but clearly there are strong doubts whether
it was done properly.
Q1144 Mr Jones: Can I ask a question
in terms of quite obviously the way in which you have been dealt
with by the MoD has been quite appalling, not only in terms of
the lack of investigations of these deaths but also clearly the
way you were treated afterwards; and having spoken to other families
I think that is a similar situation as well. We have to look at
things we can do to improve on the situation in terms of when
people are in the very unfortunate position in which you find
yourselves. Is there anything that we can do to improve that?
I look, for example, towards Police Forces that employ Family
Liaison Officers that deal with murder victims' families and so
on, and I know from when there was the Bali bombing I had a constituent
who died and Durham Police and the Family Liaison Officer were
very good at helping the family through exactly some of the points
you are talking about and getting some questions answered, or
just trying to lift that cloak of fog that there was at that time.
Do you think it would be a good idea to have someone whose specific
job it was actually not just to drop off effects and answer questions
once, but actually to work with the families after?
Mr Gray: I think the first lesson
that should be learnt is that when there is a death within an
Army barracks or Army institution there should be an investigation.
Q1145 Mr Jones: We are going to come
on to that later on. I just want to talk about how you are actually
treated afterwards.
Mr Gray: The Police Liaison Officers
did work very, very hard but unfortunately we were in a bit of
a strange situation, we were finding out information before the
Liaison Officer was; they were not kept up to speed. If there
is going to be a change there that is what needs to happen; the
Liaison Officer needs to know what is happening before it is on
Sky News.
Mr Collinson: You are saying what
sort of relationship should you have with the Army and that. The
day James died Yvonne asked the Padre and Commanding Officer to
come to the house, to say, where was James? And they actually
turned round and said, "We do not know." You have just
been told that your son has died and they cannot even tell you
where he is. What faith does that give you in them?
Mrs Collinson: I think the other
thing is they need to inform the relatives and next of kin a bit
quicker. I have heard that for some people it has taken days to
be informed that their child has died. In our case it was only
hours, but too many hours.
Q1146 Mr Jones: We heard this morning
basically that once the funeral was over that was it, nobody wanted
to know. But did you get any basic visits from the Commanding
Officers or letters of condolence?
Mr Collinson: We had plenty of
letters of condolences. Our letter of condolence says that James
died at 9.50. It was not until three months later, during a proper
investigation, that we found out that the "man down"
call went out at 9.33. So James had died before 9.50 and all the
condolence letters did not mean a thing then. Then to find out
he died before 9.33, that is the way it was.
Mr Gray: The point about condolence
letters, we were sent—and I have got the letter at home,
I cannot remember the officer's name but he is very high ranking—a
condolence letter that was dated three days before Geoff died.
It was obviously an error but it is another slap in the face,
when you look at it, and it is written in green ink.
Q1147 Mr Cran: Insensitive.
Mr Gray: Yes, that is right.
Mrs Gray: Can I just go back to
what we came on to before this? When the Padre and the Captain
turned up at my door they refused to tell me anything because
it was not me who signed Geoff into the Army, and I found that
very disturbing, and I got maybe a bit hysterical.
Q1148 Mr Jones: They just told you
your son had died—
Mrs Gray: No. They said, "Can
you bring Geoff Gray home, please?" and I said, "What
is wrong?" and she said, "Can you please get your husband
home?" And I knew it was a Padre—well, a vicar type
person—and a woman in a suit, who introduced herself as
an officer.
Q1149 Mr Jones: Would you agree,
Diane, that there is a whole need then for the Army or Armed Forces
to actually look at the way in which they deal with breaking the
news—
Mrs Gray: How the families are
told, yes.
Q1150 Mr Jones: About breaking the
news but also the support to the families afterwards?
Mrs Gray: Most definitely.
Q1151 Mr Hancock: How long did you
have to wait, Mrs Gray, for Geoff to come home from work?
Mrs Gray: Until she was nearly
out of breath.
Q1152 Mr Hancock: Sorry?
Mrs Gray: I grabbed hold of her
and held her up against the wall by her neck, and I said, "Tell
me. What is wrong?" I then realised, when she had not said
anything, they only send a Padre if somebody dies, so I said to
her, "Is he dead?" She still refused to answer. I said,
"Just nod or shake your head, is he dead?" And she nodded
her head. Then I had to phone Geoff to tell him to come home.
Q1153 Mr Roy: Another point in relation
to that. What do you think would happen—and I know this
has happened—whereby parents have split up since the forms
were signed? If you had been split up and living in another house
what do you think they would have done, would they have walked
away then?
Mrs Gray: They would not have
come and told me, I do not think.
Q1154 Mr Roy: So they would know,
for example, that the couple had split up and they turn out and
it is the mother that is there, and they say, "Where does
the father live, because we need to tell him something that we
are not prepared to tell you?"
Mrs Gray: Yes, because she asked
me who I was and I said, "I am Geoff's Mum," as soon
as they said they were from Deepcut, and she said, "Who are
you?" and I said, "I am Geoff's Mum." And she still
refused to tell me.
Mr James: Excuse me, could I just
answer the question you asked before because I have not answered
the question you asked before yet? The Commanding Officer at Deepcut
at the time of Cheryl's death was Lieutenant Colonel Nigel Barrie
Josling, I am sure you are aware. It may surprise you to know
that we were not even aware of that until 2002, seven years after
she died. So the answer to the question, did we hear from him,
did he speak to us, did we have any correspondence, did we have
an apology, I think the answer is obvious.
Q1155 Mr Jones: So you had no letter
at all?
Mr James: Nothing whatsoever.
We did not know who he was and still do not know what he looks
like.
Mrs James: We did not know his
name until 2002.
Q1156 Mr Jones: So did you get anyone
visiting?
Mrs James: No one.
Mr James: I think it is such an
important point. We were told on the Monday of the day on which
she died. We were not asked to identify her.
Mrs James: We did not know it
was Cheryl for sure until the Friday.
Mr James: So we were not able
to see her until Friday, so for four days we were clinging to
some forlorn hope that it might not even have been her.
Q1157 Mr Jones: How were you told,
Jim?
Mr Collinson: James died on the
Sunday and Yvonne asked, as I said, to go and see James, and the
first answer was, "We do not know where he is," and
it was the Wednesday before we were allowed to go and see James
and identify him.
Q1158 Mr Jones: Can I now turn to
what your understanding was of the actual responsibilities that
the Army had in terms of your children? They left your home, as
we have described earlier on, to join the Army. What is your view,
your understanding of what their responsibility was or should
have been in terms of the duty of care in looking after their
welfare?
Mr Gray: Signing Geoff for the
Army, with him being under 18, I presumed that the Army were taking
over looking after Geoff. What this is all about is duty of care.
They did have a duty of care to him and they failed in that duty
of care in the most dramatic way possible. I think young soldiers
should be better looked after within the Armed Forces in general.
They are still children, that is why you as a parent sign that
piece of paper; they are still children and they should be cared
for far better, in my opinion.
Mrs James: I think it is a question
of the Army not knowing what the left hand and the right hand
are doing. There is no communication between any of the groups,
the Liaison Officer—they said "liaison", there
is no liaison. You never have one specific person to speak to
if you have a query, they just push you around from different
departments; you never have a name, just a room number sometimes.
Mr James: I have lost count of
the number of times we telephoned, and got passed around three,
four, five times and you actually just give up because every time
somebody picks up the phone they say, "Can you explain it
to me?" So you explain it to them and then they pass you
on to somebody else. In 1996 it was taking me 10 weeks to get
a reply from the MoD. I was being referred to a room number. Even
the Liaison Officer—we never met Surrey Police in 1995.
Q1159 Mr Jones: Can I ask about when
Cheryl was actually in the Army? We are told now, for example,
on the numerous visits we have made, that parents can ring up
and talk to somebody about what their youngster is doing. Were
you able to do that?
Mrs James: Impossible, absolutely
impossible.
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