Examination of Witnesses (Questions 227
- 239)
WEDNESDAY 26 JANUARY 2005
DR OWEN
GREENE, CHIEF
CONSTABLE PAUL
KERNAGHAN, MR
STEPHEN PATTISON
AND MR
STEPHEN RIMMER
Q227 Chairman: Gentlemen, thank you
very much for coming. This evidence session is focused on continuing
operations in Iraq and the inquiry follows last year's inquiry
into our Lessons of Iraq. In late 2004 we took evidence
from the Secretary of State, principally on the deployment of
the Black Watch to Camp Dogwood. Following that session, we had
the opportunity to visit the troops when we went to Iraq in early
December. Today's session will cover a range of issues related
to the coalition's efforts to stabilise Iraq. We will hear from
a range of people dealing with the role played by civilian police
in peace support operations. This afternoon we will hear from
the MoD about operational issues and security sector reform in
Iraq—providing there are not too many votes on internal
problems on the hours we keep. Maybe we ought to seek your advice
on that, Chief Constable. Perhaps a few ASBOs issued by the Committee
this afternoon! Allow me to make a very brief introductory comment.
The key to the MoD's reforms is, as Future Capabilities
states, going from platform-centric planning to effects-based
planning. This implies thinking about the post-war scenario as
the war scenario is planned. Policing is likely to be an integral
part of any peace support operations. This was clearly the case
in Iraq, where some have been arguing that the successful military
operation came perilously close to being a failed post-conflict
operation, largely due to the lack of attention to law and order.
We therefore very much look forward to your comments, Dr Greene,
Mr Pattison, Chief Constable Kernaghan, and Mr Rimmer—a
wide range from policy-oriented academia, to policing, to the
Foreign Office, and the Home Office. If you have nothing specific
to contribute, please do not feel obligated to join in answering
any question, because we have a lot of questions to get through.
If we cannot complete the agenda, I hope you will not mind answering
those questions which specifically relate to your area of competence.
The first set of questions relate to Whitehall co-operation, decision-making
and policy. The Foreign Secretary said, in a speech at Lancaster
House on 12 January this year, that a cross-Whitehall strategic
task force on civilian policing would be created, in order to
make recommendations to ministers. What progress has been made
on this? Who will chair and sit on the task force? When will it
report?
Mr Pattison: Perhaps I might take
that first, since, in the form in which you describe it, it is
a Foreign Office proposal. The idea, as you say, is indeed to
establish a strategic task force on policing, which will bring
together all of those within Whitehall and the broader policing
community with an interest in seeing how we can improve our approach
to international policing. I want briefly to set the context,
which is that I think we currently run a pretty successful international
policing operation. The British police officers who serve overseas
are second to none in their professionalism, expertise and courage.
However, we have put that operation together in a rather ad hoc
fashion over the years, as the demand for policing—mostly
in the context of post-conflict reconstruction—has increased
vastly. In our view, that demand is not going to go away, and
it may very well increase. It is incumbent on all of those involved,
not just the British Government but international organisations
and others, to see if we cannot do this a little better; to learn
from the past and to make sure that those lessons are properly
institutionalised in the way we approach policing in future. In
the Foreign Office, we have therefore done a number of things
recently. First, we have restructured the way in which we in the
Foreign Office handle policing, and we have set up a new policing
and civilian placements team which brings together different areas
of expertise, including secondees from police services. The second
thing we are doing is trying to start this strategic task force.
It has not started yet. The proposal has gone out and we are awaiting
final confirmation that all of those invited to participate are
content. The indications are that they will be content. Some want
slightly more detail about exactly what will be involved. The
areas which we think it will look at will be precisely the role
the UK should play in international policing—so it will
be the range of policy issues associated with our policing deployments;
whether we can improve our planning capabilities—this will
always be difficult, but we are trying to move to a situation
where we can plan better to forecast the demand; whether and how
we can set up a rapid deployment capability. Again, one of the
criticisms levelled at international policing operations in the
past is that they have not been able to move fast enough. This
is now something which has been reflected at the United Nations,
in the recent High Level Panel report on UN reform. We will also
look at how we generate forces in the UK for international policing.
As I say, we currently have a system in place which has generated
a good number of serving officers for our contingents overseas;
but we want to look to see whether that can be improved in any
way. In that context, we will want to talk a little about how
serving overseas fits into a police career, and what more we can
do to register the message that serving overseas—
Q228 Chairman: That is really so
very important.
Mr Pattison: It is a really crucial
point. Those are the issues, therefore. We will be bringing together
all the major stakeholders. Our aim is to meet strenuously for
six or seven months, and produce conclusions at the end of that
period.
Q229 Chairman: You have not got to
the stage of a chairman?
Mr Pattison: The idea is that
it will be chaired by a Foreign Office senior official; and, without
prejudicing the responses of anyone else here, probably me.
Q230 Chairman: That has set it well
within the tradition of decision-making and departmentalism.
Mr Rimmer: May I add to that from
the Home Office perspective?
Q231 Chairman: Are you a candidate
for chairman too?
Mr Rimmer: Absolutely not, no.
I have every confidence in Mr Pattison and the Foreign Office
driving this. I should explain that I am responsible for policing
policy in the Home Office. Clearly, one of our focuses will be
to ensure that we can contribute fully to the task force, without
diverting focus away from the domestic agenda, which is inevitably
the priority of the Home Secretary. Having said that, the Home
Secretary has written to the Foreign Secretary to express full
and strong support for this initiative. We will play a full part
in support of the Foreign Office in developing the task force
and the options that flow from it, working very closely with ACPO.
The other thing I want to express now is the appreciation the
Home Office has for the individual and collective contributions
that have been made by police officers to Iraq and elsewhere,
particularly, in this context, in the last 18 months in Iraq.
Also—and not just because he is here, we would have said
this anyway—we also appreciate the leadership that Paul
Kernaghan has shown in providing the drive that has been needed
from within ACPO. We strongly agree with the Foreign Office that
the process, notwithstanding that, has been too ad hoc, and that
is the clear gain we expect from the task force work—to
deliver a much more structured approach to delivering what we
can.
Dr Greene: Obviously you have
been briefed about the progress in Whitehall, and I welcome the
task force. At this point, I just want to make two or three points.
First, I think that task force would need to be established with
a view to changing some structures as to how things are done,
rather than improving co-ordination amongst existing elements.
Second, I do hope that it reflects a greatly enhanced role of
the Home Office in this. Of course, in a sense this is secondary
to its primary responsibilities, but historically it certainly
needs to build its capacity to contribute to these activities.
Third, in thinking through the membership of this task force,
in addition to having objectives which expect to change some structures,
I think that it will be important to ensure good mechanisms of
connection with other aspects of delivery of rule-of-law missions.
Those are to do with the judiciary, penal reform, and so on. One
of the inadequacies of policing missions up to now—not only
the UK but elsewhere—has been inadequate interconnection
between the policing components and some of the other components.
Q232 Chairman: Chief Constable, do
you want to add anything?
Chief Constable Kernaghan: I very
much welcome the creation of the task force under FCO leadership.
I look forward to it making very clear proposals, and then the
relevant Whitehall departments signing up to those proposals.
Q233 Mr Viggers: Who will pay for
this? I ask the question because, whilst everyone in authority
talks about joined-up government, we all know that in fact Whitehall
is a series of warring fiefdoms, refereed by the Treasury. I have
known some good initiatives to founder because the cash has not
been identified earlier. Obviously, if police forces are contributing,
that looks as if it might be a council tax obligation, or it might
be a Home Office obligation or a Foreign Office obligation. So
what thought has been given to the money?
Chief Constable Kernaghan: Could
I make it very clear—because there was a specific reference
there to police forces—that, to date, for officers who are
deployed overseas, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office fully reimburse
forces. So, in our case, Mr Viggers, when an officer from Hampshire
is seconded overseas there is no liability on the taxpayers; that
is, either central government or local government tax payers,
in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. The FCO fully meet that cost.
Q234 Mr Viggers: Does that apply
to the whole of the initiative? Does the Foreign Office regard
itself as being the funder of this initiative?
Mr Pattison: Perhaps I can amplify
a little what Paul has just said. The initiative to set up the
task force—the task force is a committee, and costs lie
where they fall. The costs of people attending meetings will fall
to those people attending. However, the costs associated with
the deployment of British police overseas are indeed met, it appears
by the Foreign Office—and that is absolutely true—but
out of a budget called the Global Conflict Prevention Pool budget.
This was an initiative in joined-up government that was established
a few years ago, whereby the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence
and DfID jointly manage a budget which initially comprised money
each of those departments had put in, plus a top-up from the Treasury.
That budget finances a number of conflict prevention initiatives.
It also has responsibility for financing the UK's contribution
to international peacekeeping costs. So that is where the finance
will come from for any additional deployments. I should say that
money is always tight and there are competing demands, and we
need to look quite carefully at the demand for policing against
other demands related to conflict prevention work.
Q235 Chairman: Will this fund be
adequate? I know, because of my knowledge of the OSCE, that there
is a police unit in the OSCE—with a fabulous British police
officer there—but with hardly any budget. It means that
he cannot do very much. It looks fine on paper but, unless there
are sufficient funds to deploy sufficiently high-quality personnel,
it just becomes something that is satisfactory to the eye but,
out in the field, in the bush, in the dangerous environment where
our skilled police officers are required, they will not be there.
So is the fund adequate for a substantial increased initiative?
Mr Pattison: Your point is of
course right. Much depends on how much more policing we are able
to do. That depends not just on our ability to finance it; it
depends on our ability to find the volunteers willing to come
forward to do it. That is a bit of a challenge in its own right.
So far, we have managed to finance the deployment of 250-odd UK
police all over the world out of this fund. I think that is quite
an achievement. Policing is now firmly registered as one of the
most important contributions we can all make to post-conflict
reconstruction, and I think that proposals to enlarge our policing
contribution will be judged in that context.
Q236 Mr Jones: This is probably something
that will be covered later on in terms of individuals, but it
is not just about cost, is it? If you are taking a senior officer,
for example, out of a police force, that also has ramifications
not just for finance but in terms of the skills setting up that
police force. How do you manage that, from the point of view of
ensuring that you can fill a gap? Also, possibly with some of
these deployments, you might not know when people are coming back.
It might be six months; that might then be extended to nine months.
How do you manage it from an operational point of view?
Chief Constable Kernaghan: That
is a very valid consideration. One of my assistants is shortly
to deploy to Iraq. I am able to facilitate that with the approval
of the police authority, because it will take them through the
last year of their service. If they were one of the younger assistants
with a further career, that would be a major issue. Equally, I
would say that it would be harder if we wanted the right person
from Warwickshire, which is the smallest force in England and
Wales, as opposed to if we wanted a commander from the Metropolitan
Police service, the largest force in England and Wales. I believe
that there has to be some form—I will not get into the detail—of
a central holding unit, a central service capability, where someone
who goes overseas is posted to that unit, that ability and, when
they return from overseas, they are reintegrated into the domestic
service. I appreciate that may cause some wider issues, but we
want good people to go, with careers in front of them, who will
both contribute and be enriched by the overseas service experience,
and then come back and contribute to the domestic service. That
is a major challenge.
Q237 Mr Jones: To be able to do that,
you are going to get what was just described. Basically, the only
people who will be deployed are those who are coming to the end
of their career.
Chief Constable Kernaghan: I have
to say, for the senior ranks, that is the situation we have been
managing over recent years.
Chairman: We will come back to that,
because we picked this up very clearly recently.
Q238 Mr Havard: Can I ask you a different
question? I did not hear you tell me when all this was going to
happen, when is the report going to go to ministers, and when
we are going to see something happen.
Mr Pattison: The first meeting
of the committee will happen in February, now that everybody has
expressed their agreement to it. As I said, we are giving ourselves
six or seven months to produce recommendations. The idea is that
we meet at senior official level once a month between now and
then to thrash out some recommendations about how we can do all
this better.
Q239 Mr Havard: And report when?
Mr Pattison: It will be in July
or August.
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