Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-206)
15 SEPTEMBER 2004
MS FRANCES
CROOK AND
MR ROBERT
NEWMAN
Q200 Chairman: It is a systemic problem.
Ms Crook: It is a systemic problem.
It is not a problem of individuals. I was trying to find a way
of saying that.
Jonathan Shaw: I wonder whether there
should be a recommendation that each prison campus has a director
of business and enterprise.
Chairman: We can see a recommendation
coming along.
Jonathan Shaw: Alongside the learning
and skills.
Mr Pollard: You talked about getting
contracts to do work, and the only experience I have had is Remploy,
there is a similar sort of set-up there, and they have real difficulty
getting good quality work that is not just stuffing things in
envelopes or pulling a thing down. How do we get over that? I
think an employer might look upon it as cheap, readily available
labour that will do anything they want, that will jump through
hoops. There is neither dignity nor security. Secondly, we have
no press here today and I just wonder if I could share a headline
with you and ask you which you would prefer: "Crook Savages
Blunkett" or "Crook Hammers Blunkett"? Which would
you prefer? I will do either one for you!
Q201 Chairman: Frances, do not be tempted
down that road!
Ms Crook: I think the point you
are making about the problem of getting contracts and cheap labour
is very important and at the heart of what we are trying to get
over. In the past and currently that is exactly the problem that
prisons have had—providing cheap, inferior, unsupervised
labour which has turned out poor-quality work late. That is the
relationship there has been with the private sector and with the
voluntary sector which has tried to do work there as well. We
want to change that. I think it is possible and you have perhaps
seen it is possible in other countries. To have real work, rewarded
in real terms, engaged in the real world so that when people come
out of prison they are going to expect to get a decent wage for
a good day's work. They will have built up tax credits, national
insurance credits and pension credits which they will want to
maintain. They will know how to register with a doctor, which
they probably have not done before either. They will be engaged
in the world in a way that all of us are. It is no good looking
to one thing to reduce the chances of reoffending. You cannot
just say education will do it or the Health Service will do it
or drug rehab will do it. It has to be a complete whole which
allows people to take their place in society as responsible citizens
who do not commit further crimes.
Q202 Chairman: Step onto the treadmill
within the Prison Service rather than hope that they might do
it outside. Any more questions from the Committee? Frances, this
is the first prison education inquiry ever held by this Committee.
We want to do it pretty thoroughly and make some serious recommendations.
Is there anything that has not emerged today under questioning
that you would like to say to the Committee?
Ms Crook: I do not think so. I
think perhaps the only thing to say is that prisoners are people
too and they should be enabled to contribute to society whilst
they are in prison and when they are released, and at the moment
that is not happening, and I think if you can find some way of
helping towards that it would be a great achievement.
Q203 Chairman: Thank you. Of course,
I hope you will remain in touch with the Committee. If you think
there is any information and material that we should receive that
would help us please let us know. I hope we have got your inquiry
into prison working schemes. If you could also suggest anywhere
we might visit. We cannot make that many visits but if you could
give us a list of your priorities. Where is the Mount?
Ms Crook: Near Hemel Hempstead,
not far.
Q204 Mr Pollard: It is my part of the
world, Chairman, it is a very good prison.
Ms Crook: As prisons go!
Mr Pollard: Relatively speaking.
Q205 Chairman: Robert, would you do the
same?
Mr Newman: I am very happy to
do so, yes.
Q206 Chairman: Have you any reflections
or comments you want to make to the Committee? No. You have been
a very good pair of witnesses. Thank you very much for staying
with us.
Ms Crook: Thank you very much
for inviting me.
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