Examination of Witnesses (Questions 820-839)
8 FEBRUARY 2005
MR LEVI
SMITH, MR
AFRIM MAHMUTI,
MR LASELLS
HAZEL AND
MR MOHAMMED
SALEH
Q820 Chairman: So this is your only experience?
Mr Saleh: This is my first time.
Q821 Chairman: Lasells?
Mr Hazel: I got assessed the next
day. I came from Hollesley Bay which is in Ipswich. Before that
I was in Ashford and Bristol. As soon as they assess you they
know what level you are in English and maths. You do not have
to go to education but it is a good thing to go to because you
are out of your cell more and if you are scared of being locked
in your cell all day it takes your mind off stuff. When you go
to education you get to express your mind. When I first came it
was the same thing. People talk about jail but it is not like
people say and what it looks like in films because they talk about
24-hour or 23-hour bang up. It is not really like that. Basically
you are out of your cell all the time. If you wake up at 7.30
in the morning and the TV and electric goes off at eleven on the
juvenile side, by the time it is 10 o'clock you are tired, so
even though you have been out of your cell and you are not going
anywhere, you are still tired. Education helps you because it
is not just maths and English. There is music, art, food technology,
and when you go to the gym it is not just weights, you can play
football or rugby. There is a rugby pitch outside so it is good.
The one thing I like about education is when you go to education
they do not just say, "Do these sums." They offer you
what you want to do basically so if you want to do division you
do division, if you want to do algebra you do algebra and things
like that. It does help you because otherwise you lose track and
then things you remember doing in schools seem harder because
you have not done them. It helps to stay back on track.
Q822 Chairman: I was very rude. Would
you like a cup of tea or coffee while you are sitting there?
Mr Hazel: No.
Chairman: We are all sitting here having
a cup of tea and did not offer you one. Okay. Jonathan?
Q823 Jonathan Shaw: What would be interesting
to hear is about what you think the education and training programmes
in Feltham are going to do for you. Ultimately we represent your
families and lots of other people, and generally we represent
70,000 people each and they want to know what all this money is
being spent on. They also want to know are these people going
to do it again. So what is the education programme going to do
for you?
Mr Mahmuti: I think education
is going to help me to stay out of crime. That is what I think,
that education helps to educate yourself to help you get out of
crime. When I first came in here they offered me so many things.
They offered me a one-to-one teacher for my English and spelling
and reading and writing in English, which was really helpful.
I did a course in mechanics. I had done a course for three months
and a half and I am qualified for it as well. I did some kind
of short course but I think that is helpful because when I first
come in here what I thought was I wanted to be a plumber because
I know some bits about plumbing but they did not have that course
in here. I was a bit upset. They asked me if I would like to join
the mechanics course. I did not really know much about cars but
I said, "Okay, I will have a go and if I like it . . ."
I really enjoyed it and when I come out I think I will do mechanics
again because I really enjoyed it. I think it did help me to achieve
something.
Q824 Chairman: Is that the course that
Ford helped to create?
Mr Mahmuti: Yes.
Mr Smith: I was also doing Ford's
as well, motor mechanics and I did not know anything about motor
mechanics. I got educated from that. With the reading and writing
as well when I do get out I will be looking for a job in motor
mechanics.
Q825 Jonathan Shaw: Can feel some benefits
from the programme in terms of your rehabilitation?
Mr Smith: Yes, you can.
Q826 Jonathan Shaw: Staying out of trouble?
Mr Smith: Definitely.
Mr Saleh: I was doing the half
training course of painting and decorating and then I was doing
a training course in gardening but then I finished with that.
The only way that I know will keep me out of trouble is by me
keeping myself occupied is to be a fitness instructor. I used
to go to the gym a lot but when I spoke to the gym governors about
whether they are doing a course and getting a certificate in that
so basically you have got a certificate to say you are qualified
as a fitness instructor, I thought if I can do that at GCSE or
A level, but they told me they do not do it any more. I know there
are a lot of guys, inmates from different wings that want to be
fitness instructors but, without doubt, they need to get the qualification
while they are in here instead of coming out and then going to
college and going through all that long process. By the time they
are doing that, who knows, they can just go back and do other
crimes on the side.
Q827 Jonathan Shaw: So it is about getting
the courses. You want to do plumbing. You want to do fitness instructing.
What about yourself?
Mr Hazel: I have not been here
that long but what I would like to do is the same—fitness
instructor, sports and recreation, things like that. They do not
really do that in here. If you get the fitness instruction then
that is the first stepping stone to go all the way up. So that
is what I would like to do as well.
Mr Saleh: When you come out you
can finish off half of the course that you have done here to make
it easier for you and so then—
Mr Mahmuti: May I excuse myself
for five minutes?
Q828 Helen Jones: Could you tell us a
bit about what your experiences of education were before you came
here? Were they good or bad? If they were bad, what is it particularly
that has made the difference for you in here? What has been done
that you think has got you back into education? Is it the courses?
Is it the teachers? Is it a mixture?
Mr Saleh: Before I was in here
I was an ignorant child. I never used to listen to anybody. I
just did what I had to do and followed other people doing crimes,
so whatever they were doing I used to follow them and do what
they did. Basically I was a follower. Since I have come here doing
certain jobs right, now at the moment I am working as an education
orderly, so I see inmates in different classes. I just go and
clean different classes and if there are other inmates that need
help if they are stuck with maths or English I know because obviously
I have been trained and they have taught me how to do it.
Q829 Jonathan Shaw: Is that what that
is? Listeners?
Mr Saleh: Listeners that is the
next job. That is a two-week training course.
Q830 Helen Jones: So you have been given
a bit of responsibility; is that what you are saying?
Mr Saleh: If inmates have got
problems with family out there or with baby mothers and they are
here for Christmas, and certain inmates that think they are going
to commit suicide or kill themselves, they prefer to speak to
a listener like me. To keep me occupied I can sit down and listen
to a person and how he is feeling. So the anger he has got in
him he can take it all out and talk to me so once he has finished
talking to me he is okay—but he would prefer to talk to
an inmate than talking to the governors.
Q831 Helen Jones: Levi, can you tell
us perhaps—
Mr Smith: When I first came in
here I did not know A to B. I did not know how to read. I did
not know any letters. Then I met the education teacher one-to-one
and ever since then she has been teaching me. Now I am just getting
on with reading.
Q832 Helen Jones: You have had a lot
of one-to-one support rather than being in a class?
Mr Smith: Lots of one-to-one.
Q833 Helen Jones: That has worked for
you?
Mr Smith: Definitely it has.
Q834 Helen Jones: Before you came in
here what had happened with your education? Had you had a bad
experience?
Mr Smith: When I was on the outside,
I am a traveller obviously and I had never been to school in my
life. I travelled up and down the country. When I came into here
that is when I started education.
Q835 Helen Jones: So you have started
from scratch really?
Mr Smith: Yes.
Q836 Helen Jones: What about Lasells?
Mr Hazel: My education was good
in school but the difference is when you are doing education in
school you have got a class of 30 children and some people do
not want to work, some people do want to work, and you have got
the misbehavers and the good. You learn but you do not learn as
much because in here there are five, six, seven, eight people
to a class. If you do need help it is not one-to-one one with
the teacher but the teacher can show you what you are doing wrong
and what needs to be done right. It is easier. You can tell her
what your weaknesses are and what you are good at. If you need
help, for instance I am good at maths and stuff but the only thing
I have problems with is algebra. It seems to me pretty confusing—
Jonathan Shaw: Do not worry about it!
Chairman: Do not take any notice of this
lot; they all failed maths!
Helen Jones: No I did not!
Q837 Chairman: And John is a good mathematician.
Mr Hazel: It is hard. I can do
the easy ones but it gets confusing and I just do not know how
it works basically but it seems like I am not the only one so
that is good!
Q838 Helen Jones: No, you are definitely
not. Really what you are all saying to us it is that one-to-one
support has been valuable for you?
Mr Smith: Yes it is. When you
are in a group and asking you are not getting much help but when
you are by yourself with an education teacher then—
Q839 Helen Jones: It takes out the embarrassment
factor?
Mr Smith: Yes, it does.
Helen Jones: Thank you for that, it is
very useful.
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