Examination of Witnesses (Questions 840-859)
8 FEBRUARY 2005
MR LEVI
SMITH, MR
AFRIM MAHMUTI,
MR LASELLS
HAZEL AND
MR MOHAMMED
SALEH
Q840 Jeff Ennis: Is there any stigma
attached to doing education in this institution? In other words,
is it seen not to be manly to do a particular subject or whatever
or does everybody accept education for its value now in Feltham?
Mr Smith: Some lads do and some
lads do not. Some lads come in here and they do not care about
education. Some lads do come in here and they do want to be educated
before they get out again.
Q841 Jeff Ennis: Do we have a number
of students who change their attitude while they are in here and
think, "I am not going to do any course," when they
come into the prison and then by the end they have started doing
courses and are benefiting from them?
Mr Hazel: What happens when you
see other people doing things like painting and decorating and
things, even though some people do not mind doing it, they think
a three-month course is too long, but you are not going anywhere
so you might as well. When you see people doing good and they
are getting awards and they are getting merits and things and
they realise when they get out that can help them get in a job.
They think, "My uncle is doing painting and decorating,"
or, "I can help paint granny's house," and things like
that. It helps you. Even though some people do not want to do
it, eventually they look on the bright side and slowly --- some
people are just too hard-headed but you get the ones that come
around eventually.
Q842 Jeff Ennis: Do the staff have a
big influence in changing people's attitudes when they come in?
Are they very helpful in trying to bring people on?
Mr Smith: They are very, very
strict on swearing basically, coming out of your cell, make sure
your shirt is tucked in. Make sure you bring out your shower kit.
If you do not bring out your shower kit you do not have a shower.
They are very, very strict. It makes you learn basically.
Q843 Mr Greenway: Let's check this is
accurate to start with. Are we right to think that these vocational
courses—painting and decorating, bricklaying, motor mechanics—are
about the three most popular? Is that about right?
Mr Hazel: Yes.
Q844 Mr Greenway: Why do you think that
is? Why are they popular? Is it because there is a good facility
here for these three things and other people think they want to
do it? Do they want to do it because their mate is there or somebody
else they like is there and it is the thing to do or is there
a genuine feeling that those three skills are good things for
them to do?
Mr Smith: Some people go into
the workshops and they mess about sometimes. They are not into
the course. They cannot be bothered. They just go there to talk
to other lads and to get out of their cell for the day. Most of
us go there to do our courses basically and get our certificates
so when we get out we have got some kind of qualification so it
can help us try and get us a job.
Q845 Mr Greenway: Why is it those three
things? What I am trying to find out is what is the attraction
of painting and decorating and bricklaying?
Mr Saleh: Most of the people in
this prison, all the inmates, the only thing they can think of
every time when I ask them, even people that are first time landing
into jail, the first thing they will say is a mechanic or bricklaying
or painting or decorating. That is what us teenagers think about
as being employed—mechanics, painting and decorating and
bricklaying. That is the only thing we can think of.
Mr Mahmuti: Probably because you
would find a job when you leave and get some money as well.
Mr Saleh: It is easier to get
employed by them jobs than being employed in other things like
with a BT company.
Q846 Mr Greenway: So there is a purpose?
There is method behind their choice? There is something they are
thinking about, "When I get outside I could do this"?
Mr Saleh: Other people have been
employed outside as painters and decorators and in bricklaying.
Most of them are getting to the age that they are getting old
so they need youngsters to get experienced so they have got finally
in the future to say, "Yes, they are more experienced."
Q847 Chairman: Do you get any careers
advice in here, jobs advice about what sort of thing you should
be looking at?
Mr Saleh: Not really. It depends
if they are in a good mood when they come into work. Most of the
time when they come into work and they are not in the mood, they
explain it to us but not as clearly so that we understand what
they are saying. Sometimes they just say, "Do that. Make
this wall painted, that, that", whatever. Sometimes people
are confused, especially people that do not really understand
English. So especially for people like them they need to sit down
and talk them slowly bit by bit for them to understand, but some
of them do not do that.
Q848 Chairman: How many hours of education
do you get a day?
Mr Saleh: I do not know. I work
as an education orderly so we start about 8.30 until about 11.20
and then we go to lunch and then we come back to education at
about 1.35 until four o'clock for tea time. When it is tea-time
certain people get cells, different people got banged up.
Q849 Jonathan Shaw: They have that in
the evening sometimes, do they not?
Mr Saleh: Sometimes you get evening
education, different wings on different days, but they do not
learn, they just watch TV.
Mr Mahmuti: Sometimes you might
get an hour and a half for one-to-one, sometimes you might get
an hour basically. That helps a lot. Every Wednesday I go down
to this other education teacher, his name is Silver or something,
and I get two hours there one-to-one
Q850 Chairman: So if you are adding up
the hours a week how many hours do you reckon you do in education
or training?
Mr Smith: About eight hours, could
be more.
Q851 Helen Jones: You said you were good
at maths!
Mr Hazel: I would say about 30
to 35 hours. Sometimes education gets cancelled. It does not always
get cancelled because sometimes you do something else, you might
get education cancelled but they take you to the gym or something.
It depends. If it is not cancelled I would say about 30 to 35
hours a week. Sometimes you do not have education, you have gym
so—
Q852 Jeff Ennis: What would be the reason
education is cancelled?
Mr Hazel: I am not really sure.
Mr Saleh: There are two different
sides in one wing, there is the A side and the B side. If the
B side has got education and about three or four lads misbehave
they will cancel it straightaway and you are banging up, you are
not getting education. The main thing that irritates me is when
there is a group of six or eight inmates going to education, and
if out of eight people one person makes a mistake, instead of
the governors telling that person to go back to his wing, they
make the whole class go back. That is not fair. It is not really
all their faults and basically they are missing half their education.
Q853 Mr Chaytor: Is there anything that
you would have liked to do or now having experienced the range
of classes you would now like to do that you are not able to do
or do you think the facilities here provide you with everything
you think would be useful?
Mr Mahmuti: I have only got five
or six weeks left now. When I first came it probably would have
been nice if they had plumbing and electrician courses because
I think there is good money when you get out if you work as a
plumber.
Q854 Mr Greenway: So those courses are
not available? There is a carpentry course?
Mr Mahmuti: Electronics is basic
for two weeks. I mean electronics proper like installation of
a house.
Q855 Mr Chaytor: You cannot get a qualification
in electronics. There is not a long enough course to get a qualification?
Mr Mahmuti: It is only two weeks.
Q856 Mr Greenway: There is a joinery
course?
Mr Mahmuti: No.
Mr Greenway: There is no joiners course.
Have people asked for that? Maybe I have got that wrong. Maybe
that is what it is, people have asked for a joinery course.
Q857 Chairman: Are you feeling alright
now? If you are leaving here soon, when you leave have they told
you here what sort of help they will give you? It is alright getting
a course or an education in here but when you leave it is getting
back, having a place to stay, finding a job, all those essential
things. Have they started talking to you about that?
Mr Mahmuti: Yes I had a meeting
last week with my DTO youth offending team and Connexions were
there and Connexions are looking for a place in the area so they
can find me a college and work because I am going to be living
in East London so they are going to find the nearest college because
I want to carry on doing mechanics, and they are going find me
the nearest place I can go to to carry on doing mechanics and
part time at the weekend Saturdays and Sundays I can work at Kwikfit
doing the tyring. That is what they are trying to do, so hopefully
it will work.
Q858 Chairman: That is not a bad package.
Mr Mahmuti: I am really happy
with it.
Q859 Mr Chaytor: But when you leave you
are attached to a probation officer who you will have see how
frequently?
Mr Mahmuti: We have not spoken
about it yet but is just going to be a couple of times a week
and we have curfew times to discuss.
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