Examination of Witnesses (Questions 880-896)
8 FEBRUARY 2005
MR LEVI
SMITH, MR
AFRIM MAHMUTI,
MR LASELLS
HAZEL AND
MR MOHAMMED
SALEH
Q880 Helen Jones: No privileges?
Mr Saleh: No canteen.
Mr Hazel: No privileges basically.
Q881 Mr Greenway: No canteen so that
means no phone?
Mr Saleh: There is another thing
as well. When other people from different wings start from standard
to get enhanced to move from Quail to Teal and Wren, that is the
advanced wing, the way I see it a lot of people when they get
to enhanced are still in the wing and they have to wait because
basically there is a queue for them to wait to get to the next
wing. How I see it is they should build a bigger place with more
cells because when people take a long time to be moved obviously
a week later they could do something stupid and go back to basic.
It is better for them to move them quicker instead of moving slow.
Q882 Paul Holmes: You say there are quite
a lot of fights that start in the classes. The lads who are causing
the fights, are they the ones who are not really bothered about
education, they are just there to pass the time?
Mr Saleh: Mostly the lads who
cannot be bothered with education just start on the one that does
his work or someone that they think, "Look at him, he is
Mr Perfect," or whatever and they will say something to get
him angry. You will say to him, "I might be perfect but do
not talk to me like that because I will show you the same way
how you are talking to me", and that is how it gets into
a fight and all that.
Q883 Paul Holmes: So is there a big gap
between the people who want to use education and the ones who
do not?
Mr Saleh: Yes.
Mr Mahmuti: When you have a fight,
if someone comes up to you and punches you and you punch them
back, if you carry on doing the fight, they will nick you as well.
They do not look at it from the point of view he came first. It
should be seen as self-defence. They nick both of you together.
Surely if someone comes and punches me I will not just stand there,
I will reply. They say if someone punches you, just put your head
down and just go to officers. There are not many people who will
do that and they nick both of you and it should be the one who
started it, and that is it.
Mr Saleh: The majority of the
governors in here do not do their job right. Since I have been
here for the last seven months on remand they do not do their
job right. For example, I am a listener and if someone in a different
wing wants to speak to a listener we do not know. He could commit
suicide or something and the governor tells me, "Give me
an hour and then I will call him," but then they do not.
My job is for me to listen to an inmate if he has got any problems.
If he does not want to speak to a governor my job is to sit down
and listen to him and then try to keep him alive instead of committing
suicide. If they are not doing their job properly whose fault
is it going to be? It is going to be my fault.
Q884 Paul Holmes: Are they not doing
the job properly because they are just being awkward or because
they are rushed doing other things?
Mr Saleh: I have not got a clue.
Mr Smith: They make out they are
busy all the time but they are not. They think they are busy but
when they are behind the doors they are all playing games with
themselves.
Mr Saleh: They just sit in their
office and drink coffee. If you say, "Guv, can I get my kitchen
stuff?" they will say, "Wait, I will do it," and
about 25 minutes later you come back and still see them in the
same place bussing conversations, laughing, which is not really
fair. Some governors, for example the drug test governors, when
you are not around, if you are working or in a workshop, they
can go to your cell any time without you knowing to check if you
have got any drugs hidden but the way I see it is we might be
criminals or in prison but no matter what we are they should still
show us respect. They should go to our cells and keep them the
same way they are. About three times the drugs governors have
come to my cell, walked in there, checked everything, they could
not find anything but just to check if I have got a phone or any
drugs, and they leave footprints on my bed and on my pillow case.
That will get an inmate upset and he will take his anger out on
the governors. For what? The next governor is doing his dirty
job. That is what I do not understand.
Q885 Paul Holmes: Can I ask you about
some of the facilities that you have got here. We have seen the
library for example and a lot of money has been spent doing up
the library. Do you go there very often?
Mr Smith: We all go there.
Q886 Paul Holmes: How often do you get
there?
Mr Smith: I go there about once
a week. I get a couple of books.
Mr Mahmuti: Twice a week.
Mr Saleh: I work just next door
to it so I go every day.
Mr Hazel: Once a week.
Paul Holmes: Can you use a computer in
there?
Jonathan Shaw: There are Learning Direct
courses.
Q887 Chairman: Do you get any IT courses
here?
Mr Smith: Yes.
Q888 Chairman: Have you done them?
Mr Smith: I have not had a go
at any of them yet because I am only just coming up with my reading
and writing.
Q889 Chairman: Do you have ambitions
to do some?
Mr Smith: Yes, I am.
Q890 Chairman: We are coming to our last
few minutes. If you thought we have asked daft questions and have
not asked you the right questions, now is your chance to tell
us anything we should know that we have not picked up. Is there
anything about the education and training particularly that you
have not said that you would like to see improved or you think
is a big turn off?
Mr Smith: I pity the education
teachers sometimes because there are not enough of them in here
to try and teach all of us lads. They try and do their best. They
are rushed off their feet every day. Sometimes they cannot even
get a rest day.
Mr Hazel: Sometimes if you go
to education and you look in one class they might have two teachers
but then someone else's lessons are cancelled. I see that as a
waste because even though some people need extra help, I can understand
if our class has two teachers it might be a certain reason why
they have two teachers, but if you have got two teachers there
must be a reason why education is cancelled. My education has
been cancelled for the last couple of days but you have got classes
with two teachers. I do not know what is going on. It is a waste.
The worst thing is if education is cancelled. It might be cancelled
from 1.30 for the rest of the day. You come out for dinner and
they are telling you there is no social basically, and I have
been banged up since 1.30.
Q891 Paul Holmes: What is the usual reason
they would give for cancelling classes?
Mr Hazel: I do not know. Short
on staff is what they say.
Mr Salah: That is what happens
most, short of staff. That is another thing they need to sort
out about their staff.
Q892 Paul Holmes: They are short on teaching
staff rather than short on prison officers to take you to the
lessons?
Mr Hazel: Sometimes they get short
on prison officers. I can understand it if an officer is sick,
we all get sick, but if you do not have association, you might
have court the next day or you might need to phone somebody urgently,
something like that, because they are short on officers you cannot
have it. On my side on the wing everyone is on the top level,
is on enhanced, so they might give all the people in enhanced
association but the standard do not get it. Obviously you are
on enhanced so you get more privileges but everybody needs to
shower and make a phone call.
Mr Saleh: Everybody should get
treated equal not different, no matter what level or standard
they are. If they have got court the next day they should be able
to take them out one-by-one, take them to the shower and have
a shower rather then bang up and have a shower in your sink. I
do not know why they even say that.
Q893 Chairman: Is there anything you
want to say?
Mr Mahmuti: I agree with him.
They probably need more officers working here. When it comes to
association probably they just need more officers.
Q894 Mr Greenway: I have got the impression
that you are all pretty impressed with the education facilities
that are here but are there shortcomings, are there things that
you think they should be providing that they are not providing?
Mr Saleh: These inmates are all
different characters. They come from different countries and different
cultures and how I see it is they should build more classes and
teachers from different cultures. For example, they should be
able to do French, Spanish—
Q895 Chairman: There is no language education,
just English?
Mr Saleh: Geography, history,
RE, to learn about background histories, about Germany, World
War II. Basically they should build more education than what it
is right now. If you think of it a lot of people just keep going
every day and see the same education class and do the same thing
every day. Obviously they get fed up and they will think, "Forget
it, let's just do something to get the whole class to go back
to their wing," and for everyone to bang up basically, to
spoil it for everyone.
Mr Greenway: You want more choice, more
variety.
Chairman: We have come to the end of
our session but can I say it has been a pleasure to hear you.
Thanks for being so forthcoming and honest with us. Let me say
that if you ever need us and you want to contact us you can write
to me or write to the Committee. If you can remember any of our
names it is your right to write to any MP and they will divert
it to where they think your constituency was. If you have not
got a constituency when you are in prison, if you write to us
through me, I will pass it on to the person who is going to help
you. Alright?
Q896 Jonathan Shaw: Good luck.
Mr Smith: It has been a pleasure
being here with the lot of you today.
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