Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1020-1029)
8 FEBRUARY 2005
MS EMMA
FLOOK, MS
LIZZIE FOSTER,
MS FRANCESCA
HINCHCLIFFE, MS
PAT SANDOM,
MR IAN
HINDS AND
MS KAREN
CHAFFEY
Q1020 Mr Greenway: It is quite interesting.
I saw my FE college principal a couple of weeks ago and she was
bemoaning the fact that they do not get as much money comparable
with the schools and that is what you are saying to us post-18.
Ms Hinchcliff: The other issue
is the turnover of inmates is so very high. Trying to account
for added value, value add, whatever, is also a challenge because
we want them to progress but we never know when they are going
to suddenly disappear or when they are going to arrive and how
to give them every opportunity. Giving them the opportunity to
develop is also difficult because you think you are heading in
the right direction and all of a sudden they disappear.
Q1021 Paul Holmes: I just want to explore
a little bit more about how you estimate how successful what you
do is. Francesca said that in the last few years you can see there
are a lot more people who have achieved accreditation at various
levels so that is one measure of success. From the point of view
of the inmates, do they all value what you are offering? Do they
all want to take part? How big is the minority that just do not
want to know or who just come along to the class to get out of
the cell but to mess about?
Ms Foster: Ian mentioned a while
ago about the reduction in violence. Although I am new to Feltham
I have seen a change already in the last six or seven months in
the boys' behaviour. If their behaviour is manageable by themselves
it has an impact on how they behave in education. We can do all
sorts of fancy things in education but if their behaviour is really
unmanageable—and we were witnessing, for example, officers
having to use control and restraint on a regular basis—that
has a huge impact on the education department and the boys themselves.
With that violence reduction that has certainly helped on education.
We can then look at what we deliver because we know that the boys
are beginning to look at how they behave themselves and the output
is increasing.
Q1022 Paul Holmes: Can all the inmates
access the courses they want? Are there waiting lists. Is there
a chunk of them who just do not want to know?
Ms Foster: There is a chunk that
do not want to know but that is no different from colleges and
schools.
Ms Hinchcliff: They are all able
to access education but in terms of what specific course I think
perhaps with you there are certain restrictions on class sizes.
Ms Sandom: We only ever have six
per instructor. If there is more than one instructor you have
12 for two and 18 for three, but they have to apply on a job application
form. Then information is put down about them because obviously
we have got things like tools, especially in some of our departments.
The bricks department has some quite horrific tools in there so
you have got to be careful of that. They go from the job centre
on to the security department and if there is nothing known about
them that is really anything to give us cause for concern, then
even if he is the most atrocious young man we have ever come across
we find we challenge his behaviour in the workshops. If he is
very lippy we challenge it. "Why? Have you thought of this?
Have you thought of that?" And more often than not you can
turn them around so they are at least reasonable. Once or twice
you just do not. You get one or two that you would not anyway
in life but that is life.
Q1023 Paul Holmes: Is there much peer
group pressure from some others to say "you should not be
doing education"? One or two of the boys who gave evidence
earlier said there are incidents in class where one kid will pick
on another because he is a swot and he is working, and it will
end up in a fight and then the officers have to called be in.
Is there much of that sort of pressure?
Ms Sandom: I have been here 13
and a half years and in the workshops I do not think I have pressed
the alarm bell more than ten times. You are talking about less
than one alarm bell a year.
Mr Hinds: It is different in the
workshops because they specifically apply for that. In education
it is a little bit different.
Ms Foster: Do we have many?
Ms Flook: For boys who are more
vulnerable who are liable to bullying we have a Phoenix Centre
so it is a special room for vulnerable boys and also there is
outreach on the units which can be done. So I do not think there
is—
Q1024 Paul Holmes: But Francesca has
said twice now it is a bit different in education to the workshops
and you also said it was a bit different in other education than
English as a second language so what is the problem that you keep
hinting at?
Ms Flook: I think in education
juveniles are not applying for it. They have to come if they are
not doing anything else and there are consequences for them if
they do not come down to education.
Ms Foster: Initially there is
resistance but—
Q1025 Paul Holmes: At the other end of
the process you have got a fair degree of enthusiasm to take part
in the various courses and then you are getting more certification.
How far do you know or is it just a gut feeling and can you measure
where the improved education facilities that are now here lead
to less reoffending or can you not quantify it in that way?
Ms Hinchcliff: It is difficult
to quantify.
Ms Foster: Only if you read it
in the reports.
Ms Hinchcliff: It works on an
individual basis.
Mr Hinds: We only see our failures.
There are the ones that come back. I have had thousands of successes
because I have never seen them again but that is the only way
you can see it, when the same ones come back.
Q1026 Paul Holmes: There was talk in
our brief about the learning mentor scheme and saying the inmates
who took part in that were getting half the re-offending rates
of other inmates. Is all that sort of thing not reported back
to you, how successful different things might be?
Ms Sandom: On workshops we get
some that we do hear about. They will phone us up and say they
have got a job or they will get in touch with Connexions. That
is another good agency here. We had in October an employers meeting
day where all the instructors went down and we had the employers
from outside who could offer them jobs provided they had done
certificates of training. We had a cleaning company there and
I know one or two of mine have gone for that. That does not mean
to say they will not come back into a prison because a lot of
it depends on they go back to the same area, back to the same
friends and it all starts all over again.
Q1027 Paul Holmes: One final question.
When we were in Canada there was a lot of emphasis that had come
down from the regional government to put much more emphasis in
education into things like anger management, personal life skills,
that sort of thing. Some academics told us it was a waste of time
but some of the inmates we talked to said this was really good.
What is the balance here between formal education, basic skills
and life skills?
Ms Sandom: We do the Open College
Network course. That runs alongside the courses that give them
some communication skills.
Mr Hinds: We run an anger management
course in the gym. That is a four maximum on that, very specific,
very tailored. The majority is referred by the residential staff
for that.
Q1028 Paul Holmes: Because the Canadian
example made it a condition that you took all these courses in
order to get your remission time and get released early otherwise
you served your full sentence. Again a couple of inmates we were
talking to earlier on this morning were saying the yoga class
is great, we relax, it takes the stress away, it stops us getting
so angry, things like that. How important is this?
Ms Chaffey: They are stopping
yoga classes.
Q1029 Paul Holmes: They were saying do
not stop it. That is what they were telling us this morning.
Ms Chaffey: I do not think the
yoga classes should be stopped. Just because you cannot get an
accreditation against it, it has other functions as well. You
cannot accredit everything. I think it is nice to get accreditation
but you should not have to accredit everything.
Chairman: On that note of agreement,
I would like to say thank you. It has been a very good session.
We hope you will remain in contact with us. If you think of something
you should have said to the Committee or we should have asked
when you are away from this room please drop us a line or an e-mail.
Please keep in touch. We hope to make a very good report and it
is only with your excellent evidence and frankness that we get
the material to do so. Thank you.
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