Select Committee on Education and Skills Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460 - 465)

WEDNESDAY 3 MARCH 2004

MR MIKE TOMLINSON

  Q460  Chairman: So you are saying to us, Mike Tomlinson, that at the time that you have come out with two parts to this Report, you must know, are the Department already shadowing this, assessing it and doing some of the sums?

  Mr Tomlinson: They are already working on some of what is in this Report, yes, in a variety of ways, but they are not the only ones and there are other parts of the system that are doing it as well and I have no doubt that the Government will want to hear from those other parties as well.

  Q461  Mr Gibb: Paragraph 37 of the Report says, "In developing our proposals our working assumption is that a full-time programme leading to a diploma should typically involve 1,200 hours' guided learning time, or approximately 20 hours per week", or four hours a day, "over a two-year programme. This is less than the average time available at KS4." Could you just explain what that means, that sentence?

  Mr Tomlinson: What it means is that at that point we are making that assumption, that that is the time needed to get the diploma. It will not account for all of what the person does because in fact they will do more than is necessary for the diploma because they will add to it in their own ways either through more subjects or whatever. Equally, remember that we also need to leave within that time for the other components, 14-16, which are required within the National Curriculum because what is not a requirement of the diploma formally is, for example, science which is required, religious education which is required.

  Q462  Mr Gibb: That is also required at Key Stage 4.

  Mr Tomlinson: That is required at Key Stage 4.

  Q463  Mr Gibb: Are you saying it will be less than at Key Stage 4?

  Mr Tomlinson: The requirement of taught time for the diploma will be 20 hours, as we have said. At the moment it is a model and we have got to test it yet. There is more time, up to about five hours, in Key Stage 4 per week which will take on the other components of the National Curriculum which have to be studied as part of the National Curriculum, but which you do not necessarily have to have to get the diploma.

  Q464  Mr Gibb: Finally, in your evidence you have said that there are problems with the curriculum, you have highlighted problems with various syllabuses within the GCSE system and you have highlighted problems with the outcomes of our educational system in maths and English. At the same time as you are wanting to tackle that, you are also wanting to change the assessment and qualification system. Do you not think there is a danger that if at the same time as you are addressing the meat of the educational system, the curriculum, the syllabus, maths and English, you are changing the assessment and qualification system, you are losing an objective framework of measure to see how successful your changes to the curriculum and syllabus are and that you could lose everything and not know where you are going by doing two important things at the same time?

  Mr Tomlinson: First of all, the remit that the working group received required us to do these three parts, one about the curriculum, one about assessment and one about a national qualifications framework, so that was the remit. I think the point you make is important in terms of implementation and that is why I put this as 10 years. There are some things that one wants to change early on in that cycle which would be about the curriculum and assessment and in that period you would be retaining the individual qualifications, the GCSE, which we know now, and it would be a gradual transition of pulling those through into a diploma. We do not want that until we know we have got the other key parts right and that is all about the implementation.

  Q465  Chairman: Mike Tomlinson, this has been, I think, an important milestone in the inquiry that we are conducting and can I thank you for your frank answers and for your patience and I suspect we will be seeing you again in the not too far and distant future.

  Mr Tomlinson: Thank you very much indeed.





 
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