Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1060
- 1064)
MONDAY 10 MAY 2004
MR BRENDAN
BARBER, MR
IAIN MURRAY
AND MS
CAROLINE SMITH
Q1060 Jeff Ennis: Brendan said he
was very supportive, quite rightly in my opinion, of the effect
of the success that we have had with ULRs since they started.
One of the problems we still have to overcome, in my opinion,
is the fact that a lot of the ULRs have been based in public
sector organisations and not so many in the private sector. There
are obvious reasons for this, as I am sure everybody is aware.
How do we overcome this standing back from the private sector
in terms of promoting ULRs to the same extent as in the public
sector? What do we need to do?
Mr Barber: There is a basic, background
factor which is that the level of trade union membership and density
is very much higher in the public sector than in the private sector.
Having acknowledged that, there are some very positive success
stories in the private sector that we are very anxious to get
greater visibility for. I think it would be desperately negative
if there was any suggestion that this was just a kind of idea
for the public sector, not for the private sector.
Mr Murray: A week ago we published
a fairly detailed survey about union learning representatives
which was undertaken last year, which had a lot of statistical
information. It does show us 50/50 between the public sector and
the private sector. We do have about 47% of union learning representatives
on the private sector. Union learning representatives have now
been around since the late 1990s. One of the things we are looking
at is how do we push forward and build the capacity of union learning
representatives in workplaces. One of the key trends at the moment
is an increasingly collective approach by union learning representatives
in workplaces. That has generally been highlighted by the development
of what I call learning agreements in workplaces where union learning
representatives are now working collectively with management or
with the HR department. Around 50% of union learning representatives
surveyed said that there was some form of learning agreement in
their workplace. At the moment, the TUC is undertaking a major
piece of research, conducting detailed case studies of workplaces
where we think union learning representatives are developing this
approach. For the private sector, the benefits are about the bottom
line really. When you get union learning representatives and the
HR department working strategically together, looking at workforce
development across the piece, it has huge benefits for the business.
We also published another report last week with the CIPD, which
is a guide by CIPD to the role of union learning representatives
and how they can work with personnel and HR employees. They also
highlight the impact of learning agreements. They highlighted
a case study when they gave their evidence of a company, an example
of where union learning representatives are working strategically.
We have just been working on a case study of VT Shipbuilding in
Portsmouth which has a number of learning agreements now in place,
one for modern apprenticeships, one for level three skills, but
it also has a life long learning agreement which grew out of a
union learning fund project. It is having a major impact on VT
Shipbuilding. I think there was an interview with the chief executive
in The Guardian a couple of weeks ago and he is very much
giving his encouragement to this approach. VT Shipbuilding is
one of the highest tech shipbuilding companies in Europe now.
They have recently shown a 25% increase in productivity over the
last 12 months. On the union learning front and the fact that
they are working closely with management, they have a workplace
learning centre and they have about a third of the workforce going
through training programmes at the moment around ICT and skills
for life etc. We could certainly send the Committee the detail
on that case study.[4]
Chairman: It would be useful.
Q1061 Jeff Ennis: We have heard evidence
from previous witnesses that the main area that ULRs have been
successful in is basic skills training, in particular getting
people who have no qualifications to take that first step into
achieving some sort of level of qualification. Would you like
to see ULRs becoming more involved in higher skills training programmes
rather than the basic skills? Obviously, that is very important.
It is doing a fantastic job in that regard but is that the next
phase of development?
Mr Barber: The basic skills work
that has been done has in a sense received most attention, in
part because the consequences of that can be so life transforming
for the people who have benefited from it. It can be incredibly
powerful, meeting people who for the first time for years have
found new opportunities opening up and so on. It is clear that
in the basic skills area there is still an awful lot to be done.
There are still an awful lot of people we have not reached and
who no-one else has reached either. The basic point behind your
question is absolutely right. This is not an idea that is just
relevant in terms of bringing people back into basic skills, although
that produces some of the most emotional stories. It is about
different kinds of workplace relationships, where the union is
really able to provide a powerful role, acting as a pusher and
a prodder to the employer and able to help broker a provision
with local provider and to bring and encourage people into learning
of all sorts. It is not just a mission for basic skills.
Q1062 Chairman: You know all about
power and you have a very powerful organisation. On the one hand,
we have a seriously underskilled workforce in this country. What
are the three levers that will be most useful over this next five
or ten years to change the underskilled nation that we are into
one of the greatest performers? Who is going to do it? Where is
it going to come from, in your view?
Mr Barber: There is no single,
simple answer. It is all the things that we have been talking
about. I do think at the bottom there is a core issue which is
about employer commitment. How can we win employer commitment?
How can we grab employer commitment? That is the key test that
the new structural arrangements need to be judged against, the
Sector Skills Councils, the sector skills agreements and so on.
Do they really engage employers to make that kind of commitment?
Q1063 Chairman: How do you rate,
in terms of that pivotal leverage, the Learning and Skills Councils?
Mr Barber: That is clearly very
important too, of course. It is responsible for a budget of something
like £9 billion and that has a central role. I am reasonably
confident that the LSC is clear about its purpose and what it
is trying to do. It has the resource base. My bigger question
mark is with the employers' side of the house.
Q1064 Chairman: Who would you like
to see as the new chair? What is your job spec? Do you want an
industrialist? Do you want a trade unionist?
Mr Barber: I do not think we have
a candidate in the field at the moment.
Chairman: Thank you very much for your
attendance. It has been very useful for the work of the Committee.
4 Not printed. Back
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