Examination of Witnesses (Questions 640
- 645)
WEDNESDAY 9 FEBRUARY 2005
RT HON
MARGARET HODGE
MP
Q640 Mr Chaytor: Why the total of
3,500? Do you see my point? Without any understanding of the cost—
Margaret Hodge: It is just that
Government works in three—
Q641 Mr Chaytor: An arbitrary figure
is plucked out of the air and built into the programme.
Margaret Hodge: No. Government
works in three expenditure cycles, and we have not yet embarked
on the next spending cycle. However, the way in which we came
to 3,500 was looking at the number of children served by the current
SureStart local programmes, and looking at what that would mean
if you had one in every community. I have to say to you that it
is my view that some local authorities will develop more SureStart
Children's Centres, so that we will probably, over time, end up
beyond the 3,500 figure, because some of their community boundaries
will not make sense in the way that we have defined them. But
that seems to us an appropriate figure to fulfil our ambition
of having a SureStart Children's Centre in every community.
Q642 Mr Chaytor: Could I ask one
further thing? When the previous Secretary of State for Education
announced, essentially, the nationalisation of school funding,
bypassing local authorities, he gave any future secretary of state
huge powers to influence and incentivise schools. Is the department
intending to use that power to incentivise schools to co-operate
with the Every Child Matters programme? If not, would you
accept that schools, particularly secondary schools, will still
be driven by five A to Cs at GCSE?
Margaret Hodge: We are taking
a number of steps to try and encourage schools to engage in Every
Child Matters. Part of it will be incentives around funding,
for instance for developing extended school services; part of
it will be driven by the inspection framework and the way that
schools will be inspected against the outcomes; partly we are
looking at the model that we have had around school workforce
remodelling. We are going to use the Pat Collarbone organisation—
I cannot remember what it is called, but her organisation that
has gone round promoting the school workforce remodelling—the
National Remodelling Team—we are going to use them to work
with schools, so that they understand the impact of Every Child
Matters on their agenda. We are looking at statutory guidance
again, I am afraid—another bit of guidance to go to schools.
I have worked pretty hard with the previous schools Minister to
ensure that the new school profile that every parent will get
reflects the Every Child Matters agenda. And the conversation
that individual schools have with their school improvement partners
annually will also cover the Every Child Matters agenda.
So there is quite a powerful set of levers that we are putting
into place, which we hope will encourage the change that we seek.
Q643 Mr Chaytor: So you are accepting
that the existing system of performance tables does not actually
help your objectives?
Margaret Hodge: As they are currently
framed; but, as they will be framed with the new inspection framework,
and as a school profile, that should change.
Chairman: We are running out of time,
Minister. We have kept you a long time and we thank you for that.
The Education and Skills Select Committee seems to be a strange
zone for the Freedom of Information Act. We do not seem to be
getting much information from you. You promise it, and we need
it to write up our report. We really do need some figures, and
we do not just need the figures for how much the Early Years programme
is going to cost, but we also need what your figures are for the
implementation of Every Child Matters. That is a different
sum, is it not, and a different budget? You will see our concern,
because we admire your passion and commitment to Every Child
Matters, but the old cynics on this Committee—and I
think that we all are reasonably cynical—
Mr Greenway: No, we are not!
Q644 Chairman: We are slightly worried
about where this money will be magicked from. If you could reassure
us that not only do you have the programme but you have the money,
and the Treasury is happy, and we can see some figures to back
that up, we would be very grateful.
Margaret Hodge: I certainly will
provide you with the figures—and apologies for not having
them this morning. I am not hiding behind any mal-intent on that.
I hope that I can convert cynics to missionaries. I think that
this is an incredibly exciting programme, Chairman. It makes being
in government worthwhile. I think that if we can get halfway there,
in terms of the outcomes we achieve for children, it will be something
we will all remember.
Q645 Chairman: We are not cynical
with respect to the ambitions of the legislation. We would wish
it well. Our job is to make sure that it gets there.
Margaret Hodge: You hold us to
account, and that is completely appropriate.
Chairman: Thank you.
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