Examination of Witnesses (Questions 356
- 359)
WEDNESDAY 21 JULY 2004
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY MP AND
MS SHEILA
MCCABE
Q356 Chairman: Good morning, Minister.
Welcome back to the Environmental Audit Committee. Unless I am
much mistaken, this marks a change in normal procedure because
in the past you have tended to make an important announcement
relevant to the Committee's work on the day of your visits to
us, but it has not happened this time. Would you like to introduce
your colleague?
Mr Morley: I think it would be
better if you introduced yourself.
Ms McCabe: Sheila McCabe. I am
Head of the Sustainable Land Use Division in Defra and I am a
co-ordinating point for housing growth issues.
Q357 Chairman: Thank you. You are
both very welcome. Minister, you are obviously responsible for
sustainable development. What are your responsibilities in relation
to housing?
Mr Morley: Defra does have a role
in the provision of rural housing through the Countryside Agency
and the support that we give through the rural housing associations
in that sense. We are also consulted in relation to the development
of planning strategies, that is PPS1 to PPS25. We also have an
involvement in relation to the long-term planning of water resources.
We have a responsibility in relation to flood defence strategies
and, of course, that links in to planning itself. We have also
been a very active partner in the Sustainable Buildings Task Force
group and the range of other reviews which the Government has
been carrying out in relation to housing policies.
Q358 Chairman: I think the thing
that worries me a bit is that you have responsibility for sustainable
development and environmental issues, the DTI is responsible for
construction issues and industry and the Office of the Deputy
Prime Minister is responsible for housing and planning. The separation
of these responsibilities leads, in some people's view, to an
element of confusion. How joined up are you really able to be?
Mr Morley: We have developed a
much improved joined-up approach in relation to all these strategies
and developments. We also commissioned Entec, which looked at
the impact of housing in terms of environmental and water issues.
It is a huge area, as you have quite rightly said, Chairman. There
is quite a legitimate debate to be had about how you try to bring
this together in terms of government structures and government
departments. The problem is, as you have outlined, it is such
a vast area that it is quite challenging to include everything
within one government department. I think there is a need to have
a coordinating role and there must be consultation in terms of
our responsibilities in relation to sustainability and, of course,
our responsibility of embedding sustainability within all departments.
We do not see it, as you know, because we have had this discussion
before, as Defra being the department for sustainability. We certainly
see ourselves as being a champion within Government's sustainability,
but we see every government department having sustainability embedded
within its strategies and its approach and that is our objective
and I think we are developing that successfully. I would not wish
to be as complacent as to say that it is as effective as we would
like it to be. I think this area is still developing. I think
there is still a dynamic here. In terms of the development of
long-term housing strategies covering all those points, in terms
of resource use, the use of recycled materials for example, that
is also of interest to us and an issue for us. We have developed
structures within Government, such as MISC22 for example, where
we can bring together all government departments and have a more
holistic approach. MISC22 is potentially a very good model.
Q359 Chairman: You do not feel that
it would work better if you were in the driving seat for more
of this agenda and not just a consultee? I know you have said
it is difficult to have one government department responsible
for it all, but that used to be the case. Surely separating these
functions out to different departments must have made it harder.
Mr Morley: It was never the case
before, if you are referring to DETR, flood management was always
with the old MAFF for example, so there was always an element
of separation within the Government's structures. Obviously we
are keen to have an active involvement and to be part of the formulation
of the policy. There are structures that can be put in place.
MISC22 is a Cabinet Committee; it is a pretty powerful committee.
The Better Buildings Task Force was launched by three Secretaries
of State, ODPM, DTI and Defra and that has a joint ownership in
relation to the report and how it is taken forward and the implementation
is also a joint responsibility, so I think that is developing.
There is always going to be this dynamic about how you get the
structures right and I understand exactly what you are saying,
but I suspect that within the structure of Government you are
never going to get everything in one place. Therefore I think
the challenge for Government is to have an effective co-ordination
system so that all the areas are considered properly and the strategy
is an integrated strategy in relation to what we want.
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