Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
9 MARCH 2005
DR GORDON
MURRAY, MR
COLIN CRAM
AND MS
KATHERINE COPE
Q200 Joan Walley: As it is applied by
the local authority?
Dr Murray: Yes.
Q201 Joan Walley: Can I ask Ms Cope from
Camden: obviously you would be putting forward Camden as a local
authority with best practice, would you feel that what is being
achieved in Camden is significantly greater than, perhaps, in
other local authority areas?
Ms Cope: I think so. I think the
success in Camden is that we had the commitment, which Gordon
has been talking about, in terms of taking sustainable procurement
forward as an initiative. Before the National Strategy came out,
we had a number of targets in our Procurement Strategy about sustainability.
I was able to be put in post specifically to deal with sustainable
procurement, and I think having that designated resource has helped.
Q202 Joan Walley: You see that as something
which other local authorities are doing to the same extent as
you in terms of having people in place?
Ms Cope: I think other local authorities
are moving towards having designated people in place and, also,
they are moving away from the traditional position of including
sustainable procurement under LA 21 and embedding it more into
procurement as opposed to having it as a sustainability issue,
so it is more of a procurement issue now.
Q203 Joan Walley: Is that at variance
with what Dr Murray said just now in respect of slicing local
Agenda 21 with work which is being done by local authorities?
Is it that local authorities should be concentrating on whatever
succeeds the LA 21 Agenda or is it about, like you say, embedding
it into the heart of the chief executive's office or something?
Ms Cope: I think it is a combination
of both. It began within the LA 21 Sustainability Agenda, but
it is moving more into procurement. Within local authorities there
needs to be a link between environmental and procurement professionals,
so they can work together to learn from each other. There are
going to be areas within procurement where procurement professionals
are not going to understand sustainability and visa versa, so
it is a combination of both.
Q204 Joan Walley: Does that not rather
assume that local authorities have an abundance of environmental
professionals, when, in fact, it is not always necessarily the
case?
Ms Cope: From my experience, from
working with other local authorities, there would be at least
one person who was responsible for sustainability or environmental
issues, so I think there are enough professionals in place at
the moment.
Dr Murray: What we have got to
bear in mind is there are many different councils of many different
sizes. The reality of it is there is more likely to be a sustainability
person than a procurement person. In a very small district council
we would not necessarily expect to find a procurement person,
but you are more likely to be able to identify somebody who has
sustainability and wants to drive forward that initiative from
that perspective. Bigger councils will be putting in place big
procurement teams and possibly have somebody who is dedicated
to sustainable procurement like, for example, Camden. You cannot
generalise that would be the case right throughout local government,
that would be an unfair assumption.
Q205 Joan Walley: Is there a difference
between the way Camden does it and the way many local authorities
do it?
Dr Murray: We would say Camden
is an exemplar authority. There are many other councils pursuing
sustainable procurement who want to do more about sustainable
procurement. One of the pieces of evidence we presented to you
was that 87% of councils have said, within their procurement strategies,
they are addressing sustainable procurement, which would suggest
they have got a commitment.
Q206 Chairman: Can I ask you, Ms Cope,
what have been the biggest obstacles you have had to face in taking
this Agenda forward within your local authority?
Ms Cope: Initially, it was probably
around some of the perceived barriers in terms of what can or
cannot be done and, also, around whether enough products, for
example, were out there and the quality of the products, that
really was only perceived barriers. Also, there was an issue about
change management and getting procurement professionals to work
in a different way, which, I think, for any new initiative is
always a challenge.
Q207 Chairman: A lot of people are very
set in their ways and have got their network of contacts, have
they not, and shifting that is really quite a demanding task?
Ms Cope: As I said, that was a
problem in the beginning, so I put in place a number of training
courses, raised awareness, tried to improve communication between
the environmental and procurement professionals and now I do not
get those sorts of barriers. The sorts of information I am getting
back from departments is that they want information on specifications,
so they now know they have got to do it and can do it, they just
want the tools now to be able to do it.
Q208 Chairman: Did you hear the evidence
the Environmental Agency was giving?
Ms Cope: Yes.
Q209 Chairman: This is a question of
reducing costs as well as saving the planet, is quite an interesting
one, is it not? Do you think you have been good for the budget
of local council tax payers as well as being environmentally and
socially friendly?
Ms Cope: Using the stationery
contract, for example, I think where there has been some increase
in cost by using greener products we have been able to offset
that by the way in which we deliver that procurement process.
For example, for that particular contract we used an e-reverse
auction and by changing the way we delivered that process so we
got huge savings. I think that needs to be done also in conjunction,
again, with change management. For example, if you are buying
recycled paper which might be slightly more and you put in place
a programme of raising awareness so people use less paper and
double-sided print, again, you are reducing the costs. Sustainable
procurement should not be done on its own, it needs to be done
in conjunction with other initiatives.
Q210 Joan Walley: Given what you have
just said and the role of the IDA, can I ask how this kind of
best practice is shared amongst local authorities, how your organisation
promotes that so everybody knows, for example, how Camden has
made those changes? How do you disseminate that information?
Dr Murray: The easiest way we
try to do this is to use a proliferation of case studies. Part
of our website is dedicated to case studies, which councils can
put on themselves about particular issues. This is not the first
time we have done a presentation with Camden. Whenever we have
been asked to speak at a conference, on a previous occasion, we
had the IDA telling one story and almost double-billing with Camden.
We would generally try to work like that, we would generally try
to work alongside a council, so you have a sort of theoretical
type world and then, "here is the real life, this is what
somebody has actually being trying to do and what they have achieved".
All of our guidance uses case studies.
Q211 Joan Walley: Do you find it is the
same councils coming forward or are interested? What about the
councils who are still back in the early beginnings of LA 21 and
have not understood that this needs to be embedded at a much more
strategic central corporate managerial finance level of the authority?
Dr Murray: That is an excellent
question. The IDA focuses on poor and weak authorities. Councils
are graded through a CPA, (a Comprehensive Performance Assessment
system). We devote, as much as possible, our resources to the
people who are poor and weak. If you were looking for procurement
support, we will go and veer to the people who we believe most
need attention.
Q212 Joan Walley: Can I ask how much
of that grading of authorities takes into account their performance
on sustainable development issues?
Dr Murray: The Audit Commission
would be the people who would be appropriate to discuss that with.
From our perspective, our understanding of the new comprehensive
performance assessment is it would specifically ask that question
and specifically look at the use of resources in that context.
Q213 Joan Walley: Can I ask you about
the technical advice councils have got available to them, where
do they get that technical advice from? Is it just from yourselves
and websites or how else are they going to be equipped to be able
to have a Sustainable Procurement Policy?
Dr Murray: There was a similar
question asked a few minutes ago to the Environment Agency. I
struggled with what you meant by technical advice. If it was,
"Is this product greener than that other specification?"
we believe, at the present time, there is a gap in terms of where
you would get that information and we think the Environment Direct
Service may help fill that gap. In terms of where they would go
for advice about how to embed sustainable procurement within their
practice and what can they do at each of the stages of the procurement
cycle, their natural port of call would be either to the local
Regional Centre of Excellence or the IDA and the guidance is there.
There is plenty of availability of where to go to for support.
Q214 Joan Walley: If any of our local
authorities want advice and guidance as to how to go about getting
the Sustainable Procurement Policy, you would have that and it
would be out there for them to take?
Dr Murray: Our guidance specifically
talks about how to develop a Sustainable Procurement Policy, but
if anyone emails Ihelp@IDeA, they get a response within two days
telling them how to do it and possibly a house call, as in, we
would go to the council and have an appointment set up.
Q215 Joan Walley: Do you think the quick
wins list has been useful to local authorities?
Dr Murray: The "quick wins"
list is not binding on local authorities. We would direct people
to that and suggest they use it. Local authorities use organisations
called "purchasing consortia" quite a bit. We can see
that there has been a trend towards greening the catalogues of
the purchasing consortia and we can see that there has been a
greater increase in the use of the OGC buying solutions catalogues
and so forth, that is definitely taking place. We can see that
there is a movement towards greener products, but can we say if
the quick wins have been embedded in practice, we would not be
in a position to judge it.
Q216 Joan Walley: Finally, in respect
of the criteria you use in terms of procurement, can I ask if
there are particular practices, for example, whereby anybody can
only be considered if they have been on the list or have been
trading for five-year periods? Are there any specific constraints
on environmentally friendly contracts and them being able to put
themselves forward which you think need to be looked at in any
way?
Dr Murray: Certainly, we would
not encourage a council to have somebody who only deals with it
who if they've been trading for five years; two years might be
a bit more practical. We would look for other areas where you
can justify that they have clearly demonstrated their capability
to deliver that contract without worry. Looking for years of performance,
possibly a restriction to voluntary enterprises and SMEs, we would
not see that as a good thing; in fact, we would encourage people
to move away from that. Generally we would encourage people to
move away from those sorts of approved lists and standing lists
which have been on the go for quite some time, maybe they are
not as productive or effective as they could be in terms of sustainability.
For example, unless you can identify the connection between the
subject matter of the contract and the generation of that list,
it might not be appropriate to use the list.
Q217 Mr Chaytor: Before we leave the
National Procurement Strategy completely—I have just read
through it very quickly during your earlier comments—as
far as I can see the word sustainable only appears once and in
the Strategy there is absolutely no reference whatsoever to the
sort of things which our Committee is particularly interested
in, the way in which procurement can reduce the environmental
impact of the Government's activities. The use of sustainable
is, in this context, that one of the eight objectives of this
Strategy is to be sustainable for the communities and areas served,
which is as vague as you can possibly get. Is this not a chronic
limitation of this document if this is known as the driving force
behind what local governments are supposed to be doing?
Dr Murray: The National Procurement
Strategy?
Q218 Mr Chaytor: Yes.
Dr Murray: We would argue that
chapter six is all about sustainable procurement.
Q219 Mr Chaytor: Stimulating markets
and achieving community benefits?
Dr Murray: Yes. For example, the
employment issue we dealt with, easing access through a selling
to guide, the relationship with the community plan, diversity,
equality, sustainability, access to community suppliers, sustainability
embedded in contract processes and the strategy involving community
sector procurement are all addressed. The partnerships have to
look at what you are doing with the SMEs and what the impact is.
Most people would hold up that chapter and say it was exemplary.
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