Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
7 DECEMBER 2004
MR RICHARD
SHARLAND AND
MS CHRISTINE
SOUTHWOOD
Q20 Mr Challen: Moving onto Tomlinson,
were you surprised that the Tomlinson report did not give more
attention to ESD and do you think that is going to mean it is
a lost opportunity?
Mr Sharland: We were disappointed.
I think we welcomed the emphasis the report made for vocational
learning and vocational training because it is an area that Groundwork
has been involved with for many years and so we welcome that emphasis.
However, it would seem there is little emphasis on the core skills
not just of ESD but of issues such as citizenship. Our experience
in vocational training has been that the social skills and awareness
of the environment and how an individual relates to the community
are absolutely central to the kind of vocational learning that
people need and they want. We were disappointed that there was
not that emphasis on the vocational side.
Q21 Mr Challen: You have set out a number
of measures which you think should be included in the forthcoming
White Paper, one of which is the need for out of classroom learning
which is surrounded by a lot of problems and we now live in a
very risk averse society. You say these ought to be resolved which
is a view shared by a number of people who have sent us memos.
I just wonder what is the answer in your view.
Mr Sharland: Clearly the societal
issues are very large and we strongly agree that we seem to have
become a risk averse society and we are working with a number
of other organisations to try to get under the skin of the degree
to which the risk aversion is actually related to litigation or
whether it is related to the fear of litigation. I think there
is a whole range of issues there that relate to anti-social behaviour
issues, about the differences between realities and perceptions.
I think so far as we are concerned experiential learning and the
kind of experience that all people—particularly young people
get—from out of school learning and learning in the environment
is so important that the issues need to be explored, they need
to be understood and we need to address them. Our view is that
the quality of everybody's life—not just within the educational
realm—is suffering as a result of us becoming more and more
risk averse.
Ms Southwood: I think there is
also a link here with teacher training because I think we are
currently in a situation where many young teachers in schools
have not themselves experienced out of classroom learning when
they were in school themselves. They have gone through a training
procedure which has brought them out into schools. They have not
experienced the breadth and the diversity of learning that can
come from out of classroom activities so they do not see the need.
They have not learned it during their training; they have not
experienced it during their training and now in the classroom
they do not see that it is something that they should be involved
with because they have heard of all the fear factors that are
out there. For some time I have believed that one of the answers
that could possibly be put forward for this is that during teacher
training teachers actually have to go out and organise a trip,
go and experience it, see the potential that they can involve
in their own key stage or in their own particular specialist subject;
just have the freedom to see how they could use a company visit,
going behind the scenes of a company or behind the scenes in a
supermarket, go and visit a landfill site or whatever; just to
experience that activity, get something from it, see what they
can get from it. From our experience of working with teachers
they get as much from it as the children when we take them out
on a visit and they are then often confident enough to have a
go themselves. If they have not experienced that during initial
teacher training it is a shame.
Q22 Mr Challen: But the trend seems to
be going away from that kind of thing. Companies and everyone
else are looking at insurance premiums and all sorts of other
considerations: training their staff and health and safety. It
is a long way off this kind of thing.
Ms Southwood: I would beg to say
no. We have very effectively run a school industry link programme
for a number of years until our funding resources—which
was actually Landfill Tax—ceased. It has been very effective
and we have enormous evidence of the benefits for teachers, children,
the schools and the companies. In many cases people from those
companies have actually gone on to be school governors and those
links are still continuing. If you can address the issues effectively
and you do the correct risk assessments there is not any real
reason why these trips should stop.
Q23 Mr Challen: That is what the CBI
would call red tape, I think.
Mr Sharland: If I can add to that,
our experience there is that the role of the intermediary body—
and very often Groundwork will act as an intermediary—is
to bring two things together to make the whole greater than the
sum of the parts. It is understandable that industry will say
there is too much red tape. They would like to have the visits
but they do not want to be mired with the detail of setting it
up; they want to make sure that their interests are going to be
protected and the school have exactly the same needs. Our experience
of Greenlink was that given that the right level of resources,
planning and skills we are able to run programmes that achieve
that. I think that it is important to say there are a huge number
of examples with many organisations, many of which would have
given you evidence that actually it works and it can be made to
work with proper risk assessment and so on. It is placing a value
upon the quality of this learning and actually therefore raising
the profile of what it brings to the classroom.
Ms Southwood: We have also found
that there have been benefits both ways in terms of the company
having prospective employees for the future coming in. These are
the people who have parents and relatives already working there
and these are children who, in some respects—especially
in the areas that we work in—may actually have unemployed
parents and they may not know what the world of work is like.
We have numbers of examples where actually going in and seeing
that work is not such a bad thing and is something they may want
to join in. This has been very effective through this programme.
Q24 Mr Challen: What is Groundwork doing
to try to influence the White Paper, if anything?
Mr Sharland: We are talking to
you. We are talking to colleagues and the DFES. We have made some
responses to the Tomlinson Report and we will be putting some
comments forward.
Q25 Chairman: You just mentioned then
about the role of Groundwork as an intermediary. I know that you
have something like 50 local Groundworks around the country but
those Groundworks cannot act as intermediary with every school
in those 50 areas so there is nowhere near the whole of the country
that is going to be within reach of having that kind of extra
support. How would you rate that kind of role that Groundwork
plays where you are able to play it as something that needs to
be right the way across the board? Is that not part of the way
that we can get this whole thing flagged up because one of the
issues about schools as well is that much of what gets done in
schools depends on the governors as well. How much understanding
is there amongst governors of the role that these kinds of trips
could be playing? Who would do it if Groundwork does not do it?
Does it get done at all?
Mr Sharland: Let me get it clear
that we are not the only intermediary organisation; there are
a lot of organisations that act and behave in this way, most of
them in the voluntary sector. I think there needs to be more recognition
both within the sector and from government and outside of what
this intermediary role is and how it works. It works in a particular
way with schools but it works in a different way with small businesses
and with communities. The Government's increased focus on the
role of the voluntary intermediary sector is very welcome because
the sector can play a huge role as an intermediary. I think in
part this comes back to the issues about the department we were
discussing earlier because in a more joined-up way of delivering
this the intermediary organisations who can help the department
and schools to take us forward would be identified and there would
be some clarity about what role they need to perform and therefore
the kind of competencies they will need. One of the things that
we have suggested is that if a resource dedicated to ESD were
made available to schools so that they were able to go to an intermediary
in their neighbourhood to help them providing a service, that
would be a big step forward particularly if the intermediary bodies
were actually identified and supported, recognising that their
role is to actually support schools and help them to take this
agenda forward.
Ms Southwood: I think that is
certainly the case. We have close relationships with some LEAs,
we do not with others where our trusts exist. That is usually
because this area of work can often be found in different parts
of the local authority: it may be in environment, it may be in
planning, it may be education. It very much varies across the
country. If there was a consistent place where we could actually
go and relate to the local authority then that in itself would
be a move because the schools would also then be able to relate
to that same person or department. It is not the case at the moment.
Q26 Chairman: Given that when the Secretary
of State presented the Tomlinson Report to the House of Commons
and given that he did give a commitment that he would look closely
at the whole issue of education for sustainable development in
response to questions that he had, what do you think government
should be doing as a whole to enable and to make sure that that
support that you just talked about is available right the way
across the board rather than the DfES providing that support itself?
Ms Southwood: I think, for example,
if there was someone within the LEA who specifically had the remit
then even where Groundwork does not work there would be someone
who would be able to keep themselves up to speed with the DfES
initiatives coming in.
Q27 Chairman: Do you mean an audit? An
audit of what is happening.
Ms Southwood: In effect yes. So
that at least the schools in that particular area, if there were
no Groundwork or no delivery organisation that would be available
locally, they would have someone they could relate to that they
know would have the information available. As it is, there is
not that connection. We fulfil that role in many of our trust
areas. We have not spoken of one thing today really. We have mentioned
teacher training today but we have not mentioned the head teachers
and I think that is one of the areas that also is key because
we have so many dedicated teachers out there who are delivering
this topic within their schools but the head teachers do not have
it on their agenda. If the head teachers can see how all these
initiatives are actually linked together through the qualifications
that they are required to do then I think that is also a way in
which each school—whether they have a local support or not—can
actually at least have someone who is informed.
Q28 Chairman: Governors as well.
Ms Southwood: Indeed.
Q29 Mr Ainsworth: Can we move on to look
at the interesting idea that you have mentioned in your memorandum
about the foundation certificate for sustainable development.
Right at the beginning you express concern about the idea of making
ESD a topic in schools but would the certificate not do that,
I mean make it a topic?
Mr Sharland: I suppose that could
be one interpretation but the nature of the foundation certificate
is that it is joined-up; it provides a foundation that does precisely
that. This is still, from our point of view, at quite an early
stage of development. We are trying to develop the certificate
so that it is customised to a whole range of different groups.
It is being used in schools; it is being used with young people
on training programmes; it has started to be used with housing
associations and with local authorities. It helps to provide a
first stage background to what is this complex, all-embracing
subject all about?
Q30 Mr Ainsworth: What does the course
involve? Is it a test-based thing?
Ms Southwood: There is an internal
and external assessment. There is an external assessment for which
the NCFE are the awarding certificating authority. There is a
short multiple choice question which is externally assessed but
the bulk of it is internal. It is internal assessment combined
with a project. I know this certificate is being delivered from
year 10s through to 16-18 entry to employment individuals. Groundwork
staff have actually done it. I know a wildlife trust who have
had their staff do it. It can be pitched at the audience; it can
be pitched at the client group. There is a significant project
within it and therefore they can take their particular area of
interest, look at how sustainable development is involved with
it and develop their ideas accordingly. It is an equivalent of
a level one; it is a fairly base level qualification at the moment,
it is what you make of it. The equivalent of level two is currently
being developed. It is very much a launch pad towards sustainable
development.
Q31 Mr Ainsworth: Does that not reflect
the nub of the problem that we have been talking about which is
that there is no agreed definition of sustainable development.
If you have to invent a new form of course every time somebody
from a different background wants to do it, it reveals the fundamental
weakness.
Ms Southwood: I would not say
that I was saying you need to invent a new course because it is
very much that the project will be able to be focused upon your
own personal area of interest and that does not need to be changed.
Q32 Mr Ainsworth: Is it possible to maintain
a kind of agreed standard of attainment?
Ms Southwood: NCFE are doing so.
They are the awarding body and they seem perfectly happy with
it and are happy to develop level two at the moment.
Q33 Mr Ainsworth: Do you think this is
going to work?
Ms Southwood: If you envisage
who might be able to use it: classroom assistants perhaps, the
bursar, a governor, a premises officer.
Q34 Mr Ainsworth: Do you know how many
people have taken it up so far?
Mr Sharland: Only a couple of
hundred.
Ms Southwood: A couple of hundred
so far because we have had to train the trainers themselves in
order for them to deliver.
Q35 Mr Ainsworth: Who is actually doing
the training?
Ms Southwood: Some of our staff
have been trained up so it is like an extended pilot at the moment.
It is in its early stages but the people who are actually training
and delivering are saying to me that the potential is huge.
Mr Sharland: There is a core to
the programme that is common. If you think about sustainable
development as trying to find appropriate answers to the questions
about how do I live, work, play in a more sustainable way and
maintain a high quality of life for myself, my community, my family
and for my descendants and future generations, then depending
on what role you are in it has different impacts and it asks different
questions. For the person working at the local authority or a
housing association it raises different issues—and they
need to be relevant issues—from those that it might raise
for a group of 10 year olds.
Q36 Mr Ainsworth: Or Members of Parliament.
Could you design one for us?
Mr Sharland: I am delighted to
be asked. I think one for Members of Parliament would be an excellent
idea.
Mr Ainsworth: It would have to be voluntary
participation I think.
Chairman: Have we finished that set of
questions?
Q37 Mr Ainsworth: Not quite, no. I have
led myself astray and the Committee. I am very sorry. I want to
ask about the informal learning aspect. You say you and others
are working extremely hard to take that forward, but could you
give us a few examples of how you are doing that?
Ms Southwood: I was actually discussing
this problem earlier this week with one of our project officers
who was telling me that it does not matter what activity they
take part in—in community, youth or schools—everything
they do links in with this and it may be informal or it may be
formal. Even if they are helping a group of children to design
something for a school ground there is an element in there that
they can introduce the informal approach that the children are
using, even if in this particular case it is where is the litter
going to collect; or should be have that there? It is informal
but the children are absorbing it and taking it home. It is not
necessarily going to be ticking a box on the curriculum somewhere
but it is something that those children will take on board. It
has been shown—certainly with energy education—that
children are the most effective means of getting into the homes
in terms of energy savings.
Q38 Mr Ainsworth: That is interesting
because energy savings is obviously an issue that cuts across
government departments and I notice that you say that a number
of government departments are getting quite engaged in the whole
idea of informal learning and that the DfES, as a result of that
engagement, has an opportunity to co-ordinate things. That implies—to
me at any rate—that the DfES is not taking that opportunity
at the moment. Would that be right?
Q39 Mr Sharland: I think that is our
perception. Again it goes back to the issue of being joined-up.
It was interesting listening to Chris's answer to your question.
A lot of Groundwork projects are about improving physical space
in neighbourhoods and engaging people with that process. We see
that as not just an end in itself—although it is an end
in itself—but as a way of building self-esteem, engaging
people in thinking about being more positive about their environment,
their social relationships and what they contribute to the local
economy. When we are discussing with people about a piece of waste
ground, for example, you said you want a play area, what kind
of play area would you like, how do we design it, what approach
do we adopt, actually bringing education for sustainable development
values to that process and making connections with other things
that are going on in the community actually (a) enriches the project
that is being undertaken but (b) provides the links to other projects
and other opportunities. It is a way of thinking and the informal
learning in a project such as the one I have just described is
not measured at all but it is actually a very important outcome
of the work; it is one of the reasons we engage in the work in
the first place, to help a community or a neighbourhood to regenerate
itself and help them to improve the quality of their own lives.
There is a whole raft of learning issues that are actually outcomes.
| 
