Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
11 JANUARY 2005
MS BRONWEN
JONES, MS
KELLY FREEMAN
AND MR
BOB RYDER
Q220 Chairman: Does anybody else have
any view on that?
Ms Jones: I think we all have
views but I am not sure whether we are here to give our views
or to answer for the department.
Q221 Chairman: I think what we are trying
to establish is the extent to which this is going to feature in
a future strategy and in a way how we learn the lessons from went
on previously. And if it did not feature sufficiently adequately
in the previous strategy prior to the review what were the reasons?
How can we learn from that? Because if we cannot learn from what
has gone wrong how can we put it right in the future?
Ms Freeman: One of the points
that I would want to make is that we specifically commissioned
the research because when Defra was created we felt that we needed
to have a much better understanding of what would work in the
future and how you could draw everybody together to work cohesively,
and that is exactly what the Darnton research and the "carrots,
sticks and sermons" research is about. It has given us information
upon which to base future activity, but the whole point of it
has been to learn lessons and to move on.
Q222 Mr Thomas: Would it be true to say,
in a nutshell, that what has happened is the strategy did not
change behaviour in the way that the government would have hoped
and that a very strong message coming back from the consultees
on the review of the strategy has been that you are not changing
behaviour, you need to rebuild and review the way that education
and behaviour change is done by government? Would that not be
a fair way of summarising where we have got to with this?
Ms Jones: I am not sure whether
that is exactly what the consultees said but the summary responses
are on the website so the Committee can check that. Certainly
they came back and said that education, awareness raising and
behaviour change were important ways of doing this.
Q223 Mr Thomas: They said behaviour was
not changing in the way it has to, to achieve objectives?
Ms Jones: You would be putting
words into my mouth. I am not sure whether they said that in terms.
Q224 Mr Thomas: I am sure somebody did!
Ms Jones: I think if we looked
hard enough we might be able to find that, but the overriding
message was about the importance of education and behaviour change.
Ms Freeman: I think for the purposes
of the Committee what is important is that you recognise that
we certainly feel that we are learning lessons and that we are
moving forward and we are very confident in that.
Q225 Chairman: Before we leave this whole
area of the review, I personally got a letter from the then Secretary
of State for Education back in 2003, from Charles Clarke, telling
me that the DfES was working closely with Defra on the review
to influence the inclusion of Education for Sustainable Development
and revised indicators, because this is something that I was particularly
concerned about and something that I flagged up with him. I just
wonder, before we leave this, if you could confirm that that work
did take place, how you fed into it from Defra and also perhaps
to say to the Committee how often and with whom the issue of indicators
was actually discussed?
Ms Jones: I can confirm that we
have been working very well and very constructively with the DfES
and indeed DCMS on the aspects of education within their remit,
and that has been very, very useful. I cannot tell you how often
indicators have been discussed between those departments. We did
have two inter-departmental meetings specifically on the indicators
set. I would have to check whether DfES were able to attend those,
but they were certainly invited.
Q226 Chairman: We would be interested
to know. Just before we leave this area, given what you have said
already is there an inter-departmental structure addressing SDS
across government?
Ms Jones: There are many.
Q227 Chairman: Is there one that is actually
operative?
Ms Jones: Yes, they are all operative
in their own way. I would not pretend that this is ideal but the
current formal structures are that there is a working level across
government network called the Sustainable Development Officials
Group.
Q228 Chairman: At what level of civil
servant?
Ms Jones: It is chaired by Jill
Rutter, who is my director. I am not sure I know the grades of
the people attending, but I would guess they are about grade 7,
if the Committee understands that.
Q229 Chairman: Is there ministerial input
into that?
Ms Jones: No, this is an official
working level group. There is a programme board which is overseeing
the development of the strategy, which we hope will continue to
oversee delivery of the strategy, and that is currently chaired
by Brian Bender, our Permanent Secretary, and it is my hope that
he will continue to chair it after the strategy is launched, although
that is a matter for him. There is also the Sustainable Development
Task Force, which Margaret Beckett chairs, and of course there
is the Cabinet Committee ENV and the Green Ministers. So at various
different levels there are a number of cross-departmental groups
operating.
Q230 Chairman: Finally, before we leave
the DfES evidence that we have had to the Committee, they did
list achievements that demonstrate that the process of change
has actually begun, but you only really mentioned a reference
to one of those, and that is the Healthy Living Blueprint. So
is Defra involved any more than that or is it just one? Is that
the only involvement you have?
Ms Jones: Our involvement has
been really at a level above that. We were consulted on the action
plan and made some suggestions and we see it as our role to support
DfES at that level rather than get involved hands-on in all of
their individual policy initiatives, and I think that is our role
with most other departments as well.
Q231 Chairman: What about leadership
from the DfES? Is the leadership that you are experiencing from
them adequate or could they do more?
Ms Jones: We are very pleased
with what DfES have done and set out in their action plan.
Q232 Chairman: Does that suggest that
your role has changed? How has your role changed since they have
been taking the lead on this?
Ms Jones: I think our role is
the same as it is for other departments, to support, to challenge,
to provide overarching policy frameworks, strategy frameworks
and to pull together across government things like the UK strategy
and to help provide a direction for other departments to take
this forward.
Q233 Chairman: Do you think if we had
the same set-up as there is in Wales, where there is much more
of a duty given to this, that that would change your role in all
of this?
Ms Jones: It undoubtedly would
change the role of the Sustainable Development Unit; it might
change quite a lot across government if we had statutory duty.
Q234 Chairman: Would that mean more leadership
is coming from within Defra on that?
Ms Jones: I am speculating here
on what that change would be but it seems to me that the purpose
of a statutory duty would be to spread leadership and commitment
right across government so that Defra would have to perhaps take
less of a role, but who can say what changes it would bring about?
Q235 Chairman: In respect of the Tomlinson
Report, it did not seem to us that there was much of this whole
agenda in the Tomlinson Report. Were you disappointed that that
was the case?
Ms Jones: I did not read the Tomlinson
Report.
Q236 Chairman: You have not read it?
Ms Jones: No.
Q237 Chairman: Would you not have thought
that that was the one major opportunity of actually influencing
Education for Sustainable Development, through the Tomlinson Report,
and you have not read it?
Ms Jones: It is difficult for
us to know which are the key things to read right across government.
Sustainable Development, as the Committee has noted, is a very,
very wide subject and it is not possible for us to track every
development in every department, nor do I think that that is the
Sustainable Development Unit's role. We support DfES at a strategic
level; we have frequent meetings with them and involve them in
discussions on Sustainable Development. The SDC also has a role
in supporting government departments, including DfES. I think
that is how we see our role in Defra.
Q238 Chairman: If I then said in reply
to you that that would perhaps lead us to feel that ESD is being
treated as some kind of optional extra, not just in relation to
Tomlinson but the approach that that symbolises towards education,
would you agree with me?
Ms Jones: No, I do not think I
would. As I have said, I think we see our role in supporting departments
in a different way than reading particular documents.
Q239 Chairman: But it is not a question
of reading documents, it is reading something that is influencing
departments.
Ms Jones: Indeed, I agree, and
perhaps with hindsight we should have read it but all I can say
is that we did not so I cannot comment further on that.
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