Examination of Witnesses (Questions 526-539)
19 JANUARY 2005
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND MICHAEL
STEVENSON
Q526 Chairman: Minister, can I welcome
you and thank you very much for coming along at such short notice.
First of all, can I say many congratulations on your post and
promotion. We think it is a very important one and the Environmental
Audit Select Committee looks forward to working with you, so thank
you for rescheduling your diary and coming along at short notice.
Can I add to that and ask, first of all, whether there is anything
you want to say to us, in terms of the brief that you have just
taken responsibility for and how it links to Education for Sustainable
Development? Is there anything you wanted just to flag up with
us at the very outset?
Derek Twigg: If I can make an
opening statement. I have responsibility as a Green Minister,
because you had a look at the division of responsibility in the
Department so I was very pleased to be given this brief. Obviously,
the link with education is very important and we are trying various
ways and methods, which obviously we discuss, of the profile of
this very important area and I want to look at ways of how we
can improve on that. I think it is fair to say that we have moved
on and there has been progress, but as a new Minister coming to
this brief I would like to say to you that I think there are areas
for improvement. I want to examine some of those in the next few
weeks and months and then come back to you to report on the ideas
I have had and the improvements, which hopefully we can take
forward. Maybe I will talk a little bit more about that later
when we go into the questions, but certainly I would like to look
at ways of improving the profile of this agenda and improving
its teaching and development in schools.
Q527 Chairman: That would be your shopping
list. Are there other things you would like to add to that shopping
list at this stage?
Derek Twigg: I am happy to say
that and then go through the questions and answer them as well
as I can.
Q528 Chairman: First of all, we have
taken evidence from Estyn in Wales as well, and one of the things
which struck us there was the way in which ESD, or sustainable
development, is actually written into the role of what the Welsh
Assembly does there. Given the responsibilities that DfES has
and the priority that ESD is giving all of that, would you say
that it is important that Education for Sustainable Development
should be written into that role, so that those responsibilities
are there, written in from the very start? At this stage, can
I welcome Mr Stevenson as well.
Derek Twigg: Schools have a statutory
duty already to incorporate teaching about sustainable development
in a number of subjects. With regard to having a duty in Wales,
it is on all public bodies, it is not just educational. I think
certainly it is an idea that is interesting and worth looking
at, but as a DfES Minister I do not think it is for me to say
that will happen, it is for Defra to take a view on that. Certainly
I think it is a very interesting area.
Q529 Chairman: Can I press you just a
little bit more and ask, if it is not there from the very start,
if it is something which is added on perhaps by some people, how
can you be sure that it is going to be taken into everybody's
thinking right from the very outset?
Derek Twigg: As I said, we have
got a statutory duty to incorporate it in the teaching of subjects
and the Department has made clear our priority in the Sustainable
Development Action Plan for Education and Skills and the importance
we attach to it. I think that high degree of importance is there
in schools, they are aware of it. As I say, it is across all government
public bodies, it is actually a requirement in Wales, so really
it is a matter for Defra to make a decision on. As I say, it is
something in which I have an interest and which I will look at.
Q530 Chairman: As a new Minister coming
to this whole area of responsibility, what do you think about
the term Education for Sustainable Development, do you think it
is something which does have currency still, is it the right term?
The views that we have had seem largely to be split between those
who think that everybody knows what this issue is and only the
converted understand what it is all about.
Derek Twigg: If you are saying
is it on the lips of every schoolchild, of every teacher, probably
it is not. I do think it is a good description for the enterprise
of making people in all sectors of education in schools aware
of our actions and how they affect people and interact with them,
the local and global environment and the legacy we leave for future
generations, which is from our Sustainable Development Action
Plan. I do think it is important. I think it has that resonance
and it helps us reach the target we are looking for. It is a very
important phrase and important line that we should work towards,
so it does have resonance and personally I am supportive of it.
Q531 Chairman: Probably you have had
reports back, I do not know. In some of the evidence that we took
yesterday, for example, it was suggested to us that only those
who were fully on board with this agenda actually used this phrase,
understood what it was about. What do you feel that you can do
in your new ministerial role to make sure that those who have
never heard of this phrase, or have never heard of this whole
agenda, understand that this is something they have to take as
important because it is a Government priority?
Derek Twigg: While certainly I
agree with that, I think it is very important not to get too tied
up in definitions, in terms of the importance of the sustainable
development agenda in schools and education. One of the things
I want to look at is, for example, we are putting a lot of information
on a new website about sustainable development for school practitioners
and I would want to look at how widely known that is, how widely
read it is. To take an example, in citizenship, for instance,
do we give it a high profile? Those are just some of the areas
I want to look at in my new ministerial post.
Q532 Chairman: We want to come on to
some of those, because it emerged in evidence yesterday that putting
something onto a website does not mean to say that anybody knows
that it is there.
Derek Twigg: That is one of the
things I want to explore.
Q533 Chairman: You wanted to come in,
Mr Stevenson?
Mr Stevenson: Just to say that,
given the nature of what we are trying to do, and seed-thinking
about sustainable development right across the ambit of what schools
do, from their buildings to their transport, to their healthy
eating, to their curriculum studies, I think it is unlikely that
all the time, necessarily, we would want to put that under one,
big umbrella phrase, Education for Sustainable Development. It
has its place, but what we are trying to do is integrate the thinking
right across the board, and in terms of its language you would
find it represented in different ways, in different places. That
is our emphasis I think.
Q534 Chairman: When the previous Secretary
of State came before this Committee, in our initial inquiry into
this, he came along thinking largely that education for sustainable
development really was all about whether or not you had a proper
plan for a school building. I think it came as a bit of a bombshell
that actually we were talking about teaching, we were talking
about training, we were talking about skills and we were talking
about the whole curriculum. The two are interlinked, but this
Committee would not want to lose sight of what the DfES is doing
insofar as its responsibilities are to oversee education and link
it into the whole curriculum. I think it is in that area that
we are interested to explore just how much understanding there
is that, amongst headteachers, school governors, people around
the country, that is part of what is being taught and the way
that teachers are approaching it in schools. What can you do to
emphasise this?
Derek Twigg: As I say, being new
to this role, that is one of the areas I want to examine and I
will be asking for further reports from my officials on that.
Q535 Chairman: With whom will you be
liaising on that?
Derek Twigg: Michael is the lead
member of the Board on this.
Q536 Chairman: With other outside bodies
across Government?
Derek Twigg: The agencies outside,
yes, of course.
Q537 Chairman: So which agencies?
Mr Stevenson: Primarily, we are
working very closely with SDC, CEE, Forum for the Future.
Q538 Chairman: I am sorry, I am not very
good with these initials.
Mr Stevenson: There is Forum for
the Future, the CEE, Council for Environmental Education, and
the Sustainable Development Commission, but as well, obviously,
Defra and other partner departments right across Government. We
are playing it very much as a collective exercise, we are all
parties going forward together on this.
Chairman: Thank is very helpful. Thank
you.
Q539 Mr Ainsworth: Coming back to what
Mr Stevenson said a while back, that really there is no point
in having a big umbrella thing, it is all sorts of different
initiatives being integrated into mainstream education, do I detect
that there has been a bit of a shift in policy? If there has been
a shift in policy towards integrating it rather than driving it
forward under a banner, might that explain why so many people
seem to be unimpressed by progress from the Action Plan? If it
is now a series of initiatives to integrate across the board and
you do not need the umbrella, perhaps the Action Plan is not needed
either?
Derek Twigg: Again, not that I
want to repeat myself, I do agree of course with the Action Plan.
Also it is about integration, so I want some more information,
in terms of the feedback from schools, and obviously the other
bodies as well, about how we can take this forward in a more systematic
way and give it that high profile. I accept the point you are
making of it really being a concern, which is why I want to look
at it to see how we can get it more into focus and make sure that
the Sustainable Development Plan is being given a high priority
within education.
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