Examination of Witnesses (Questions 560-579)
19 JANUARY 2005
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND MICHAEL
STEVENSON
Q560 Chairman: Is this likely to be on
the agenda?
Derek Twigg: I will put it on
the agenda for when we have the meeting, yes.
Q561 Mr Thomas: I wonder if I can ask
you about the Tomlinson Report, because a number of witnesses
and evidence to our inquiry have expressed concern that there
was little evidence of Education for Sustainable Development within
that Report. Is that something that you were surprised yourself
to see, considering that the previous Secretary of State himself
had put such an emphasis on ESD?
Derek Twigg: I would not say I
was surprised. Obviously, I would be concerned that we go and
look at that in more detail, and I can tell you that there are
internal discussions going on about this very issue. At the same
time, because we had not commissioned that paper, I cannot say
more about it at this stage, but we are having discussions on
this very issue.
Q562 Mr Thomas: Similar to the question
you were given on the Sustainable Development Strategy, I know
you cannot tell us what is in the White Paper, well you can if
you want but probably you are not likely to, but you can give
us at least some assurance about how you want to take this forward?
Your memo. to us says that it will be one aspect to be considered
as implementation and development work is carried out. Surely,
Education for Sustainable Development, and sustainable development
in particular, is more fundamental than that. It is not just one
aspect, it is a fundamental thing which should run through the
White Paper and the work of the Department?
Derek Twigg: I do not want to
disagree that it is very important, but, as I say, really I do
not want to go into the details of what may or may not be in the
White Paper and pre-empt its publication and I do not think you
would expect me to do that. All I can say to you is that we are
having discussions about it and I have outlined already I think
to the Committee the grave importance I attach to it.
Q563 Mr Thomas: I think one of the things
which certainly struck me from the evidence we had yesterday was
that this idea came across from some witnesses that ESD was part
of the detail, and because Tomlinson did not deal at all with,
I think one example given was, financial education or debt literacy,
or whatever it was, because it did not deal with financial literacy,
as an example, then ESD was similar, it was a detail, something
that we can deal with later. Yet other witnesses have expressed
concern about that approach and are saying, "Look, we're
fundamentally getting off on the wrong foot here because we're
setting in place fundamental changes to the curriculum, to the
way that post-14 education will happen in England and we're not
putting in now, at the start, an appreciation of where sustainable
development has to be when inside school life"?
Derek Twigg: I think we have said
that, in terms of our Action Plan and in terms of the information
we have put on the website and in terms of publications. In terms
of the White Paper, again, I cannot go into that but I have said
already, and I am trying not to repeat myself, that it is important
to us and discussions are taking place around that.
Q564 Mr Thomas: Can you give a commitment
to us that, having had this session with us, you will be prepared
to look at the workings of the White Paper and what is coming
out, to make sure that ESD is going to be treated appropriately
within that?
Derek Twigg: We will continue
with the discussions around it.
Q565 Mr Ainsworth: Can we have a look
at the improvements there have been to the curriculum since this
Committee last reported. Here again, I am afraid we have had some
pretty negative evidence. We are seeing the Geographical Association
later this morning and they have submitted evidence to us which
says that, despite the initiatives which you have told us about
in your written memorandum, ESD appears to have a low priority
in the curriculum and in schools. They say ESD cannot flourish
in an overprescribed and overfull curriculum, and they say that
the curriculum is fragmented, with no co-ordination or curricula
planning for ESD. This is supported by the RSPB, who likened current
practice rather beautifully to expecting a dot-to-dot picture
to yield a Rembrandt portrait. You have said repeatedly, Minister,
that this is an important area of education. You set the strategy
and the policy in your Department. Do you feel that you should
be taking more responsibility for making sure that policy actually
is carried through?
Derek Twigg: I do not accept much
of what you said as being true, in the sense of what is happening
in schools. I think quite a lot is happening in schools. If I
could say, and maybe repeat this as well, we are working with
subject associations, the QCA, the Council for Environmental Education.
New Schemes of Work Units have been deployed in citizenship, science,
geography and D&T, the subjects with a statutory ESD requirement,
to help both primary and secondary teachers to embed sustainable
development in their teaching. The suite of units is almost complete
and will be available on the QCA website, and later on the Department's
new website. I have responsibility also for the curriculum and
specifically for geography and citizenship, and again, as I mentioned
in my opening remarks, it is an area I want to look into further
to see how we can improve that. I accept that no doubt there are
areas in which we can improve, no doubt there is more we can do,
but I think it is also the case that we have made quite a good
start already, in terms of improvement in this area, but again
I would want to look at it and see what further can be done. Michael,
I do not know whether you want to add anything more to the comments
I have made on subject areas.
Mr Stevenson: Just to say, if
I may, that because of the place of sustainable development in
those four curriculum subjects it does mean that every child in
the country is looking at it between the ages of 11 and 14, Key
Stage Three, and many who take those subjects forward to GCSE
continue to study through 14 to 16. It does not feel like a negligible
issue.
Q566 Mr Ainsworth: We have just heard
about the suite of units, so it is good to know that they are
going to be finalised shortly, but, given the problems that we
keep being told about, not only in relation to ESD but across
the board in education, of an overfull curriculum and the pressures
that we are all familiar with, unless this is compulsory in some
way, what chance do you think there is of teachers really taking
it up in the way that you would like them to?
Derek Twigg: As you say, there
is a lot to do.
Q567 Mr Ainsworth: Really it is a question
of whether, without an element of compulsion, which may or may
not be a good thing in its own right, the suite of units, all
the other initiatives, are actually going to happen in the classroom?
Derek Twigg: I think I made it
clear before, in teacher training, for instance, in developing
this particular area within that programme. Also it is important
for me, when I look at citizenship, for instance, to see whether
there is a specific element we can get in there which will be
part of the teaching of that particular subject. It would not
be compulsory but it would be an element of that teaching. I think
that would be helpful. For instance, in geography, there might
be more we can do in terms of improving the agenda on that. I
would want to say also that the problem is we have got many pressures
in the Department for priorities. Obviously, our key aim is to
improve in a range of areas, but the pressure, I think, and it
is right, to ensure school improvement overall and to get resources
to the front line, to teachers and pupils, is paramount. It is
a balance, about how we work within the resources that we have
currently, and it is whether that balance is right, and we might
have a difference of opinion about that, but it is the balance
I want to explore further, it is part of my remit as the Schools
Minister.
Q568 Chairman: Can I press you just a
bit further on that because in the evidence that we had yesterday,
in fact, we were concerned about to what extent inspectors were
trained to be able to pick up at Key Stage Three and the extent
to which ESD was being included in those core subjects that you
mentioned. Do you have a view on that?
Derek Twigg: I am briefed that
there is an ongoing dialogue. Again, I will raise that when I
meet Ofsted along with the other areas I have said I would raise
with them and find out more detail, if that is obtainable.
Q569 Mr Thomas: One of the things we
have been able to do in this inquiry is compare and contrast the
experience in Wales with that in England, where there are different
inspection regimes but also, of course, in particular, a different
approach to sustainable development. At the beginning of this
session you expressed your interest, at least, in looking at some
of the lessons and discussing that with Defra, and indeed we have
an Education Bill going through the House of Lords at the moment.
Do you think it is an opportunity to look at the English system
to see whether there could not be some sort of duty placed on
the system to meet the obligation under sustainable development,
because it does seem that, at least in the Welsh context, that
has brought forward a concerted and much more cohesive effort
than we have had from evidence from England?
Derek Twigg: I think the straightforward
answer is that I would want to look at a number of options about
how we could continue to make the improvements that the Committee
has been highlighting and which I would like to see. I would not
want to commit myself to that, but, as I said, I have got an interest
and I think I want to look in more detail into what is happening
in Wales and whether we can take some lessons from that. I think
there is a range of options we have got to consider and certainly
that is one which I will be asking officials to bring forward
to me.
Q570 Mr Thomas: In a way, in the context
of what the Government itself is trying to achieve and when we
do see, shall we say, a launch and relaunches, and it is a criticism,
I know, which is made from time to time of this Government that
certain initiatives tend to get rebranded and relaunched, but
one thing is for certain that there has not been a rebrand and
a relaunch of Education for Sustainable Development. Do you
think that it is getting the emphasis that it needs as to what
should be a core part of the Government's approach to young people
and to the generation which is going to make decisions about the
way we live our lives?
Derek Twigg: The answer is, I
think we could do better. I think we have made progress. As the
new Minister, I shall be having a fresh look at this. I will want
to see where we can make those improvements. Whether it is a relaunch,
as such, is another issue, but in terms of the emphasis that I
can give and the ways we can look at of improving its profile
and giving a much firmer message about its importance, that is
something I am looking at.
Q571 Mr Thomas: That will be welcome,
and I was not asking for another relaunch. The sales pitch has
been a bit low key, shall we say, has it not?
Derek Twigg: I would not say it
has been low key necessarily. As I say, I have read it out to
you, I think there have been a number of achievements and we have
moved forward from where we were.
Q572 Mr Thomas: Let me put it to you,
if you are a headteacher you do not look only at the monthly magazine,
you do not look only at what is on the web, you also read the
papers, see the news, and so forth. You will see time and time
again the Government associating itself very closely with a sports
initiative, a citizenship initiative, or whatever it may be, and
we have not had that really in the educational field, that close
association between the Government leadership and Education
for Sustainable Development, we have not had that really, have
we? It is not to say you are not doing things but we have not
had that sort of close association so that people get the impression,
"I wonder if this is important for my school," and not
just headteachers but the governors come in then at the next governors'
meeting and say, "I saw it on the 10 o'clock news, I think
it is really important. I looked it up on the web and I saw it
and I think we should be driving this forward."
Derek Twigg: I hope I have given
the impression today, at least, that I do attach a high degree
of importance to it and that we do need to do more, and in part
I hope that answers your question. On the other hand, it is an
issue about balance, is it not, with schools being autonomous
in terms of what they want to prioritise as well and how much
we can be prescriptive about things and what we should be prescriptive
around. There is a balance to be struck there between ourselves
and the schools, but, as you say, the ministerial commitment to
raise the profile as well I think would be something which would
be welcomed.
Q573 Mr Thomas: One of the interesting
things just from last night, for example, reported in the news,
was the comments of a Harvard professor who has now gone to ground,
I understand, about whether women can do science. One of the first
things the news did was go to the Science Museum and show how
children were being taught within the Science Museum, demonstrations
given of science, and in fact very much about sustainable development
really, because this is about the environment and the impact we
have on the earth. Also, we have had a lot of evidence to this
Committee about work, publicity, like the Science Museum, Global
Action Plan, amongst others; these are all projects which they
have told us do not get too much support from your Department
in what they are trying to achieve. Are you looking at that? Do
you think that your Department is engaged enough with NGOs, with
educational charities which are working now with young people,
and do you think you have given them enough support really to
integrate what they are doing into Education for Sustainable Development?
Derek Twigg: I do recognise that.
I can give you an example from my own constituency. We have Catalyst:
the Museum of the Chemical Industry, which is a very important
science resource and very popular with children and obviously
they talk about the Science Museum, the national museum, it does
have an important role to play. I asked, for instance, if there
were any examples, and one or two were pulled out. For instance,
from 2003, 60, CMS and DfES are funding jointly the Science Museum's
Creative Canals Project, which is £335,000. The Science Museum
is working in partnership with Beauchamp Lodge Settlements, the
Ragged School Museum in London and the Canal Museum on the project.
That is an example of just one. The context of the programme links
directly to sustainable development and thereby provides valuable
teaching support for this area of study and participating schools.
I suppose, in a sense, the schools have got the budgets and they
may choose, for instance, to go to visit the museum in my constituency
as being an important part of their science development within
the school. On the general issue of whether we can do more, I
have got to look at that, but, again, it is about what resources
we have and how we prioritise them. What I am trying to say is
that it is a very important resource and I know it is well used.
Q574 Mr Thomas: Can I give you an example,
because resources are important but access and influence and discussion
are also important. We had a specific example from Global Action
Plan where they said they found it very difficult to speak to
anyone in your Department above a certain grade. They did not
feel that they were included and certainly did not feel that they
could get access to senior officials, and they are one of these
charities which are involved directly in this field. That reflects
what Mr Ainsworth asked you earlier about the Development Education
Association as well and the potential for a divisive or competitive
environment which would not be very useful in this particular
field. Do you think the Department is doing what it should, not
only about resources but it is accessible, open enough, actually
involving these bodies in the discussion and delivery of new ideas?
Derek Twigg: Not according to
this body. It is a simple question. If they said that, if you
tell them to write to me we will try to arrange with them a meeting
with officials. Again, it is something I will take back from this
meeting today to see exactly what we are doing in that area.
Q575 Mr Thomas: I am sure, after this
meeting, you will look at that. It is a general thing, is it not,
whether your Department is inclusive enough?
Derek Twigg: I think we are. I
am not quite sure why they have not had a meeting. I do not know
all the details of that. For instance, yesterday, I met with the
Farms and City Children charity, which is a tremendous charity,
getting children out onto farms and into the countryside, and
talked to them about how we help them, in terms of getting more
funding but also in terms of general help. That was in my first
few weeks. I can speak only from my own experience and I think
we are quite an inclusive Department and we are very open to listening
to new ideas. I would have to know more about what the problem
was with this particular organisation, but if you ask them to
write to me we will look into it.
Mr Stevenson: May I add just one
thing on that. I think the Department is genuinely inclusive in
working with all players here, but it is often important to have
a very small number of lead partners who can help the Department
co-ordinate many, many others. Two in particular have worked with
the Department. In the pre-16 arena, SDC (Sustainable Development
Commission), from whom we have now seconded someone who will help
us forward and we have paid for that. In the post-16 arena, Forum
for the Future, who, with me, have brought together many other
agencies from the education sector, to whom again we have given
small seed-corn funding to embed sustainability literacy right
across the professions. We have taken that move whilst at the
same time looking to involve all players, all agencies, Education
for Sustainable Development, in our work.
Q576 Chairman: We are going to move on
towards that very issue of funding, but just before we leave this
general area can I put it to you that in the evidence we received
yesterday one witness said that really it comes down to accountability
and whether or not the headteacher or the chair of governors feel
that this is something that they have to do. They have no doubt
about the fact that it is required of them and, given all the
many demands on their time and commitment and on their staff,
etc., etc., the question is, is this something they have to be
accountable to somebody for, about having to do it, because if
it is not it tends to get dropped off the list? Would you agree
with that statement and would you agree that ESD should be one
of those areas where there should be some accountability?
Derek Twigg: Yes, there has got
to be accountability, in the sense that we are trying to drive
forward an agenda. Again, it is about balance and about the priorities
as well that schools have and how we work with them, rather than
being a sort of sledgehammer, saying "You will do this,"
how we can encourage them to work in this way and make it a priority.
As I said to you earlier, I am going to give it greater priority
and I want to look at ways of improving our commitment and work
in this area. It is an area that I can look at and see the best
way of bringing that about within the balance and resources that
we have.
Q577 Chairman: I think that everything
we are looking at tends to confirm that the way to do it is to
embed it at the very outset rather than have the add-on, end-of-pipe
solution as an afterthought for just a very few. It is how the
Department deals strategically with that which is important, but
we look forward to hearing about progress on that, I think. If
I can move on then. You have just mentioned resources and you
have talked about a balance there with resources. In their written
evidence to us, RSPB have been one of many organisations who have
made the point that, the way in which this work actually is carried
out, the non-governmental organisations, the NGO sector, are carrying
a lot of the expenditure involved with the promotion of ESD and
often they are caught between a rock and a hard place because
there is not grant in aid and confirmed funding from Government.
Very often they are at the whim of temporary funding, they have
to renew applications every three years and that really too many
people are failing and falling between the cracks here. Are you
aware of a gap in funding at all?
Derek Twigg: I am aware, obviously,
that NGOs have put in bids and have not got their funding. We
have talked to Defra and have had to prioritise what is available
within resources, so not everybody is going to be satisfied about
the resources available and about how we prioritise those resources.
Q578 Chairman: You have just mentioned
Defra. What discussions have you had with Defra about this?
Derek Twigg: Defra made it clear
what the criteria were, for organisations bidding for limited
resources, and that bids were judged against those criteria, quite
properly, with no guarantees of success being given to any organisation.
The process for deciding which bids would be approved was done
in a fair, consistent and transparent manner. Obviously, if those
who did not get it are unhappy, which they will be, then it is
difficult to add to what I have said, in terms of what is available
and determining those projects with the priorities which Defra
have laid out.
Q579 Chairman: Would you see it as part
of your new remit to have a look perhaps at what funding there
was and what funding has been removed, and I am talking particularly
about the money which came from the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme?
Are you aware, first of all, of how much money has been removed
from NGOs who would have been working actively on this agenda
and who do not have that source of funding to go to now because
of the change in the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme?
Derek Twigg: My officials tell
me that discussions are going on with the Treasury and Defra about
this.
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