Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580-591)
19 JANUARY 2005
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND MICHAEL
STEVENSON
Q580 Mr Ainsworth: With a view to what?
Derek Twigg: Trying to find out
whether we can find some alternative methods of funding, but whether
that will happen I cannot say.
Q581 Mr Ainsworth: Has anyone in Government
yet established the value of the monies which have been lost as
a result of the changes to the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme?
Derek Twigg: I will have to write
to you again on that.
Mr Ainsworth: Thank you very much.
Q582 Chairman: Can I go back a second
to be a bit more in depth on this, because the relationship between
DfES and Defra has changed really, has it not, the balance has
changed? What would you think were the implications of that, with
respect to funding?
Derek Twigg: When you say the
balance has changed, could you be clearer?
Q583 Chairman: When we saw Defra and
we talked about funding for ESD, "Oh, well, it's not us,
it's DfES," and that was the impression we got. Looking into
that, it seems that the criteria which underpinned the funding
streams, that there were to NGOs who previously had relied upon
Defra funding, have changed. You might say, quite rightly so,
because Defra have moved on and now they are dealing with issues
to do with sustainable consumption and awareness on those issues.
They assume that, because DfES have taken leadership on Education
for Sustainable Development, any ensuing funding requirements
which follow on are now a matter for DfES. I do not see where
the funding streams are within DfES to substitute for what previously
was there for Defra. Have you looked at that? Are you aware of
that? Are you worried about it, because I am?
Mr Stevenson: Just to say that
certainly, as far as I am aware, Defra encompass educational criteria
within their broader criteria, and took account of the views of
officials within DfES in thinking about the bids which came forward.
We are also aware that both Defra are funding some education-oriented
SD projects and, within our limited resources, we have a commitment
to fund some SD projects as well. That is the context in which,
within limited resources, we are trying to allow projects to go
forward.
Derek Twigg: Defra are using EAF
to fund several projects which are working specifically with either
young people or schools to deliver sustainable consumption outcomes,
but at the present time we are waiting for an official announcement
to be made on this.
Q584 Chairman: In terms of the Environmental
Action Plan monies that were available, which over the past 20-odd
years have funded organisations which I think you have already
indicated you value, in terms of their role on the education agenda,
if it were the case that the Defra criteria no longer applied
to them, because those Defra criteria now operate sustainable
consumption and production but in fact would not necessarily apply
to education funds, and given that there is no grant in aid, for
example, I know in another area, say, football, which I take a
great interest in, the Football Foundation has got a grant in
aid now in respect of money from, presumably, I do not know, DCMS
or Treasury, but there is nothing similar, is there, for NGOs
working on Education for Sustainable Development? Defra is no
longer the lead body on education and if it changes its criteria,
and we all want to see this whole issue of sustainable consumption
addressed but the corresponding funding streams have gone, it
will leave a lot of organisations in the lurch, will it not? Are
you looking at which organisations Defra are no longer going to
be funding and how that money can be made up from your own Department?
Derek Twigg: As I say, I want
to look at the criteria and examine that.
Q585 Chairman: Were you aware of the
criteria changing with Defra?
Derek Twigg: I am aware the criteria
have changed but I am not aware of the detail of that.
Q586 Chairman: I think it might be helpful
if you could let us know exactly how that is affecting organisations
with which you work very closely?
Derek Twigg: Yes. I will put it
in as part of the review when we look in this area anyway, so
I will make sure that I come back to you on that.
Q587 Chairman: This is not just in the
field of environmental issues, I think we see this across the
range. A lot of voluntary organisations, no matter what their
specialist area, are reliant upon three-year funding or lottery
funding, and we are talking about something which is as important
as this, which actually is fundamental to the way in which we
are developing education. Many people have contacted us with their
written evidence saying that often the only thing they can do
to put this on the agenda is to have the kind of example that
you talked about with the British Waterways in your own constituency,
where you have got field studies taking place. I think it might
be very educational for you to look at where the funding is, or
is not, because the funding just is not there?
Derek Twigg: I appreciate the
concern and the reasons for that. To be frank as well, we have
got the priorities within the budget as a whole, but within that
we will look at the criteria to see whether we can actually find
any way of helping. At the end of the day, I have got to look
at the overall priorities I have got in this particular role that
I have. I will come back to you when I have examined it and had
time to think about it and reflect on the way we might be able
to take this forward.
Q588 Chairman: Would you agree with me
that we are in the United Nations Decade for Sustainable Development,
are we not, which started three weeks ago, or two weeks ago, so
we are making a long-term commitment to the United Nations? Our
own Government is about to take on the G8 Presidency and the European
Union Presidency and is saying that climate change and sustainable
development are really key issues. Would you agree with me that
there should be some kind of transitional funding, at the very
least, for organisations which are about to lose significant funding
from Defra and are not finding it elsewhere?
Derek Twigg: We are going to look
at the priorities that we have got within education and the funding.
Q589 Chairman: I am saying, is not this
a priority, Education for Sustainable Development?
Derek Twigg: It is a priority,
but I have got to look at the whole and decide what the priorities
are and how we can find funding for those priorities. I do want
to look at the criteria. I want to go back and examine a number
of things you have said today, and obviously a number of my own
thoughts I have had in recent days prior to my appearance before
you today, and come back and give you a much fuller answer and
information and a decision about where we want to take that forward.
Chairman: That is helpful. This is a
sub-committee, but I think I can speak for the Environmental Audit
Select Committee and the way in which we operate. We see our role
very much as certainly pressing Government but at the same time
making sure that we can work closely, and if there were any way
in which we could be party to any discussions and to help address
this issue, in any formal or informal way, at some later stage,
I think we would be very happy to pursue those because it is an
important issue.
Mr Ainsworth: I would endorse what you
have just said.
Q590 Chairman: Thank you very much for
coming along this morning. This has been one of the first select
committees which have invited you.
Derek Twigg: The first.
Q591 Chairman: May I hope that it might
encourage you to consider this whole subject as much a priority
as does this Select Committee. Thank you very much indeed and
we look forward to your many written responses to the issues we
have raised.
Derek Twigg: Can I thank you very
much and say that I am very keen to work with you in an inclusive
way.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister, and thank
you, Mr Stevenson.
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