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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 84-v House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE ENVIRONMENTAL AUDIT COMMITTEE (ENVIRONMENTAL EDUCATION SUB-COMMITTEE)
Wednesday 19 January 2005 DEREK TWIGG MP and MR MICHAEL STEVENSON Evidence heard in Public Questions 526 - 650
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Environmental Audit Committee (Environmental Education Sub-Committee) on Wednesday 19 January 2005 Members present Joan Walley, in the Chair Mr Peter Ainsworth Mr Simon Thomas ________________ Memorandum submitted by Department for Education and Skills
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Derek Twigg, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools, and Michael Stevenson, Director for Strategy and Communications, Department for Education and Skills (DfES), examined. Q526 Chairman: Minister, can I welcome you and thank you very much for coming along at such short notice. First of all, can I say many congratulations on your post and promotion. We think it is a very important one and the Environmental Audit Select Committee looks forward to working with you, so thank you for rescheduling your diary and coming along at short notice. Can I add to that and ask, first of all, whether there is anything you want to say to us, in terms of the brief that you have just taken responsibility for and how it links to Education for Sustainable Development? Is there anything you wanted just to flag up with us at the very outset? Derek Twigg: If I can make an opening statement. I have responsibility as a Green Minister, because you had a look at the division of responsibility in the Department so I was very pleased to be given this brief. Obviously, the link with education is very important and we are trying various ways and methods, which obviously we discuss, of the profile of this very important area and I want to look at ways of how we can improve on that. I think it is fair to say that we have moved on and there has been progress, but as a new Minister coming to this brief I would like to say to you that I think there are areas for improvement. I want to examine some of those in the next few weeks and months and then come back to you to report on the ideas I have had and the improvements, which hopefully we can take forward. Maybe I will talk a little bit more about that later when we go into the questions, but certainly I would like to look at ways of improving the profile of this agenda and improving its teaching and development in schools. Q527 Chairman: That would be your shopping list. Are there other things you would like to add to that shopping list at this stage? Derek Twigg: I am happy to say that and then go through the questions and answer them as well as I can. Q528 Chairman: First of all, we have taken evidence from Estyn in Wales as well, and one of the things which struck us there was the way in which ESD, or sustainable development, is actually written into the role of what the Welsh Assembly does there. Given the responsibilities that DfES has and the priority that ESD is giving all of that, would you say that it is important that Education for Sustainable Development should be written into that role, so that those responsibilities are there, written in from the very start? At this stage, can I welcome Mr Stevenson as well. Derek Twigg: Schools have a statutory duty already to incorporate teaching about sustainable development in a number of subjects. With regard to having a duty in Wales, it is on all public bodies, it is not just educational. I think certainly it is an idea that is interesting and worth looking at, but as a DfES Minister I do not think it is for me to say that will happen, it is for Defra to take a view on that. Certainly I think it is a very interesting area. Q529 Chairman: Can I press you just a little bit more and ask, if it is not there from the very start, if it is something which is added on perhaps by some people, how can you be sure that it is going to be taken into everybody's thinking right from the very outset? Derek Twigg: As I said, we have got a statutory duty to incorporate it in the teaching of subjects and the Department has made clear our priority in the Sustainable Development Plan for Schools and the importance we attach to it. I think that high degree of importance is there in schools, they are aware of it. As I say, it is across all government public bodies, it is actually a requirement in Wales, so really it is a matter for Defra to make a decision on. As I say, it is something in which I have an interest and which I will look at. Q530 Chairman: As a new Minister coming to this whole area of responsibility, what do you think about the term Education for Sustainable Development, do you think it is something which does have currency still, is it the right term? The views that we have had seem largely to be split between those who think that everybody knows what this issue is and only the converted understand what it is all about. Derek Twigg: If you are saying is it on the lips of every schoolchild, of every teacher, probably it is not. I do think it is a good description for the enterprise of making people in all sectors of education in schools aware of our actions and how they affect people and interact with them, the local and global environment and the legacy we leave for future generations, which is from our Sustainable Development Plan. I do think it is important. I think it has that resonance and it helps us reach the target we are looking for. It is a very important phrase and important line that we should work towards, so it does have resonance and personally I am supportive of it. Q531 Chairman: Probably you have had reports back, I do not know. In some of the evidence that we took yesterday, for example, it was suggested to us that only those who were fully on board with this agenda actually used this phrase, understood what it was about. What do you feel that you can do in your new ministerial role to make sure that those who have never heard of this phrase, or have never heard of this whole agenda, understand that this is something they have to take as important because it is a Government priority? Derek Twigg: While certainly I agree with that, I think it is very important not to get too tied up in definitions, in terms of the importance of the sustainable development agenda in schools and education. One of the things I want to look at is, for example, we have put a lot of information on the website about sustainable development for schools and I would want to look at how widely known that is, how widely read it is. To take an example, in citizenship, for instance, do we give it a high profile? Those are just some of the areas I want to look at in my new ministerial post. Q532 Chairman: We want to come on to some of those, because it emerged in evidence yesterday that putting something onto a website does not mean to say that anybody knows that it is there. Derek Twigg: That is one of the things I want to explore. Q533 Chairman: You wanted to come in, Mr Stevenson? Mr Stevenson: Just to say that, given the nature of what we are trying to do, and seed-thinking about sustainable development right across the ambit of what schools do, from their buildings to their transport, to their healthy eating, to their curriculum studies, I think it is unlikely that all the time, necessarily, we would want to put that under one, big umbrella phrase, Education for Sustainable Development. It has its place, but what we are trying to do is integrate the thinking right across the board, and in terms of its language you would find it represented in different ways, in different places. That is our emphasis I think. Q534 Chairman: When the previous Secretary of State came before this Committee, in our initial inquiry into this, he came along thinking largely that education for sustainable development really was all about whether or not you had a proper plan for a school building. I think it came as a bit of a bombshell that actually we were talking about teaching, we were talking about training, we were talking about skills and we were talking about the whole curriculum. The two are interlinked, but this Committee would not want to lose sight of what the DfES is doing insofar as its responsibilities are to oversee education and link it into the whole curriculum. I think it is in that area that we are interested to explore just how much understanding there is that, amongst headteachers, school governors, people around the country, that is part of what is being taught and the way that teachers are approaching it in schools. What can you do to emphasise this? Derek Twigg: As I say, being new to this role, that is one of the areas I want to examine and I will be asking for further reports from my officials on that. Q535 Chairman: With whom will you be liaising on that? Derek Twigg: Michael is the lead member of the Board on this. Q536 Chairman: With other outside bodies across Government? Derek Twigg: The agencies outside, yes, of course. Q537 Chairman: So which agencies? Mr Stevenson: Primarily, we are working very closely with SDC, CEE, Forum for the Future. Q538 Chairman: I am sorry, I am not very good with these initials. Mr Stevenson: There is Forum for the Future, the CEE, Council for Environmental Education, and the Sustainable Development Commission, but as well, obviously, Defra and other partner departments right across Government. We are playing it very much as a collective exercise, we are all parties going forward together on this. Chairman: Thank is very helpful. Thank you. Q539 Mr Ainsworth: Coming back to what Mr Stevenson said a while back, that really there is no point in having a big umbrella thing, it is all sorts of different initiatives being integrated into mainstream education, do I detect that there has been a bit of a shift in policy? If there has been a shift in policy towards integrating it rather than driving it forward under a banner, might that explain why so many people seem to be unimpressed by progress from the Action Plan? If it is now a series of initiatives to integrate across the board and you do not need the umbrella, perhaps the Action Plan is not needed either? Derek Twigg: Again, not that I want to repeat myself, I do agree of course with the Action Plan. Also it is about integration, so I want some more information, in terms of the feedback from schools, and obviously the other bodies as well, about how we can take this forward in a more systematic way and give it that high profile. I accept the point you are making of it really being a concern, which is why I want to look at it to see how we can get it more into focus and make sure that the Sustainable Development Plan is being given a high priority within education. Q540 Mr Ainsworth: I know you were not Minister at the time that the memo. was submitted, which makes life difficult, particularly for you, but the memo. does say that the Action Plan has generated much activity and enthusiasm on ESD in schools. The problem we have got is that we have mountains of evidence from all sorts of organisations and individuals saying that is not the case. Do you still stand by the statement in the memorandum that there is a great deal of activity going on as a result of the various initiatives? Mr Stevenson: Certainly, wherever we go we come across wonderful examples of schools embodying sustainable development in all its dimensions into all that they do. There are hundreds of examples. Some of the ones that I think are the most exciting, frankly, are the new‑builds that are going up, under the Building Schools for the Future programme, and it is not just the buildings, though clearly they are powerful and symbolic, but they house a very powerful, cross-dimensional approach to sustainable development. Do we think that every school is there, do we think that every college and university is there, no, we do not, and we recognise there is a great deal of progress to be made, but I think we feel that the broad approach to instilling this right across all that institutions do nevertheless is the right one. Q541 Mr Ainsworth: Is it not the case that of course there are very good examples and there are shining examples of real energy and action being brought to this? Generally speaking though that has got very little to do with the Action Plan itself. It has got to do with the personal agendas of governors and heads and maybe traditions which have built up in individual schools over the years. The problem we have got is in trying to establish what value the Action Plan has brought to this whole agenda. We had evidence yesterday that huge numbers of people do not even know that there is an Action Plan. How is the Action Plan actually delivered to schools? Mr Stevenson: The Action Plan was disseminated broadly across partners and agencies, specifically to schools. Q542 Chairman: Can you list which partners and which agencies? It would be helpful to us to know. Mr Stevenson: I cannot give you a list of sort of one to 25 off the top of my head. We can write to you perhaps. Derek Twigg: We can write to you. Q543 Chairman: If we can have that piece of evidence in writing it will be helpful. Thank you. Mr Stevenson: In terms of how it was shared with schools, as I say, it was made available on the website and we directed attention to that using our panoply of communications channels with schools, and predominantly our other web portals, including teachernet, our Teachers' Magazine, which goes to every single school in the country, our governors' magazine likewise. We prefer to use all of those channels to promote the importance and significance of this document. Q544 Mr Ainsworth: I will not have to tell you how knackered teachers feel at the end of every day and it is going to be a very remarkable teacher indeed, having finished the workload at the end of the day and parked the books on their kitchen table, who says, "Oh, I must just look up the website and get in touch with sustainable development"? Mr Stevenson: Just on that, the way we have communicated these plans, and the Action Plan in particular, is part and parcel of our wider communication with schools. We have been moving away from, as some have said, inundating schools with hard copy publications of one sort or another. It was that which they complained about most, that they got so many they could not distinguish between one and another. We felt the right way to do things was to go to web delivery and make sure that we gave as much weight as we could to the significance of what was on the web through single documents like Teachers' Magazine coming out once a month, or the governors' magazine once a month. We do not underestimate for a moment the significance of sustainable development for schools. We do want the communication of the policy to sit within our wider approach to taking the burden of communication off schools. Q545 Mr Ainsworth: Do you recognise anything in what we were told by the Development Education Association when they said that "the DfES has failed to recognise the importance of strategic ownership and engagement of this whole agenda"? Derek Twigg: What evidence did they give you to justify that? Q546 Mr Ainsworth: It was in their written evidence. They have cited also a number of examples where they believe that since the Action Plan came into place things have gone backwards rather than made progress, really since DfES took the initiative on the case for sustainable development? Derek Twigg: What I asked for is, "Can you give us something by way of achievement in this area?" so if I put on record what has been said it might be helpful in some ways. There was a Global Gateway launched in 2004, which is a website which enables people involved in education across the world to engage in creative partnerships. The Building Schools for the Future, the Building Research Establishment's Environmental Assessment Method, was piloted successfully in nine schools and which we used to assess the suitability of BSF projects. The Healthy Living Blueprint for Schools was launched in September 2004 as a joint initiative with the Department of Health, Defra, DCMS and the Food Standards Agency, to encourage children to eat sensibly, stay physically active and maintain good levels of personal health. The School Transport Bill reflects the Department's desire to provide healthier, greener and safer ways to school. If passed, it will allow 100 LEAs to develop innovative travel schemes. Q547 Chairman: Sorry to stop you. On the travel schemes, for example, just on that very one issue, my experience is that whenever constituents complain to me about unsafe transport and the fact that schoolchildren going to school are not safe because of the way parents park, and all these other issues, they want something done about it. They want traffic-calming, they want road education, they want children to understand about walking and cycling and how that fits into the whole wider, big picture. When it comes to it, the schools say, "Well, we haven't got the time to put in applications for 'safe routes to school' bids." When there was a new initiative under the current legislation for pilot projects going through Parliament, officials of local authorities said, "We haven't got time to put forward a bid to it." Basically, it all rests on somebody else's responsibility to do something about it, and the schools in perhaps the most deprived areas do not actually have the means of linking up to all these initiatives. You mention school transport, but how can you be sure that it is being rolled out right the way across the country? Derek Twigg: The Bill itself, as you know, makes it clear about partnership working and the lead given from the Department and working with other areas in schools, so I think there are a number of ways and methods of trying to improve that situation. Again, I will give a commitment to you to go back and look at that in some more detail. The National College of School Leadership has begun to incorporate ESD into the training it offers. The Youth Service Unit's Working Group on Sustainable Development has produced a report with recommendations for action, which are being taken forward now. In further education, the Learning and Skills Development Agency and Learning and Skills Council have launched the 'Learning to Last' toolkit, an online kit to support and promote sustainability in the FE sector. Generally in FE and higher education, the Learning and Skills Council and the Higher Education Funding Council for England have published draft strategies on sustainable development for their sectors and are now consulting on them. There are a number of initiatives and improvements taking place. It might also be helpful to remind the Committee about the commitment we have given in the Five Year Strategy for Children and Learners. It might be helpful if I read out the relevant part. "Every school should (also) be an environmentally sustainable school, with a good plan for school transport that encourages walking and cycling, an active and effective recycling policy (moving from paper to electronic processes wherever possible) and a school garden or other opportunities for children to explore the natural world. Schools must teach our children by example as well as by instruction." I think there is a very clear point in that paragraph. Q548 Mr Ainsworth: There is no doubt that the words sound good. It is the delivery that is a problem at the moment. I think you recognised that in some of your opening remarks, really it needs to be bedded in and understood and strategically led if it is going to happen across the board, and not happen simply because some headteacher happens to think it is a good idea to do it. As I said, there have been a number of criticisms, not least from the NGO sector, who are bearing quite a lot of the strain when it comes to delivering this agenda, who say that it is made for a more competitive and divided and less strategically engaged sector since DfES took control. Irrespective of that, and obviously you are not going to admit that things are as they describe them, is not there a real problem which you have in restoring the confidence of people like the Development Education Association, the WWF, other NGOs engaged in helping to roll out this agenda, who seem to have lost confidence in the way that it is being handled? What are you going to do about that? Derek Twigg: As I have mentioned, let us have some dialogue with these organisations to see how we can take this forward. Again, going back to my opening comments, I accept that we can improve and we can do things better but I do not accept that we have not done good things, and things have been taken forward and I have just read you a list of examples. I would like to contact these organisations to see how we can embed it better and have a better focus for this agenda within education, and I can give that undertaking to the Committee. Q549 Chairman: I am just wondering, when you took over this role with the responsibilities for Green Minister, did you have a kind of personal brief memo. from the outgoing Minister to sort of pick up on things where perhaps the DfES needed to do more work, if I can put it that way? Derek Twigg: I was given lots of briefings when I took over as Minister and one of those was this, and obviously I picked up too the areas of concern which you have highlighted. I think I have a new look on it, as a new Minister. I have been in the job for a very few weeks, I want to give it some more thought and time and put forward a plan as I see it for taking forward this agenda in a more sustainable way. Q550 Chairman: Would you accept that, in order to do that, we will need structures and we will need mechanisms to make it happen, because otherwise it is left to just one or two converted headteachers or chairs of governors to do all the running on it? Derek Twigg: The difficulty that we have in the Department, and you will know this, is that often we have been criticised for too much bureaucracy and loading schools with too much information and direction, etc., so there is a balance to be struck in this area. Again, I suppose clearly there is some new thinking and a new mind on it. I want to examine how best we can keep that balance while at the same time improving this agenda in schools and giving it that greater degree of focus and leadership. Q551 Chairman: Does the Sounding Board still exist, because that was very influential, was it not, in keeping hearts and minds focused on this agenda, providing some kind of conceptual framework? Does that still exist and are you still working with the Sounding Board? Mr Stevenson: The Sounding Board was critical and made a huge contribution to the creation and then the dissemination of the Sustainable Development Action Plan. As I understood it at the time, it was brought together specifically for that purpose. It does not meet in that form now and has not done since the Plan was created and disseminated. The way forward then was to work with individual bodies by sector to make the Plan happen, and that is on two bases. First with organisations in the sustainable development world and we have named some of them. Also with bodies within the education and skills sector, critically HEFCE, the Learning and Skills Council and others too, in order that they should take forward for their sectors a strategic overview of sustainable development, and that has led to strategies from HEFCE and LSC for the FE sector. We are increasing this in the context of our Five Year Strategy. We are living in an increasingly devolved world where the Department is looking to offer strategic leadership to its agencies and partners on the front line to take on more responsibility. Q552 Chairman: In that new world of offering strategic leadership and rolling out programmes and leaving it to people to pick that up at the sharp end, really you are accepting, are you not, that the implementation and development of the Action Plan is important once the vision has been created, because you can have a vision but if you have got no delivery you are not able to take it forward, no‑one is going to take a blind bit of notice of it? Derek Twigg: That is a point I do not accept, that we have not taken it forward. Whether we have taken it far enough and whether we can do better is another issue, which, as I said, I want to address. Coming back to the specific point, I am keen to get in touch with the key organisations over the next few months, hopefully to build that relationship which can deliver what this Committee wants to do. Q553 Chairman: I am sure we are very pleased to hear that. In terms of the Action Plan, and we talked about its dissemination and putting it on a website, can you tell me how that compares with the Enterprise Education Strategy? The Enterprise Education Strategy had a dedicated budget, did it not? Once it was published, was that distributed to schools? Derek Twigg: I do not know the answer to that. I will have to take it back. Q554 Chairman: If it was published and if it was distributed to schools then if that was the case with Enterprise surely it should be equally so with sustainable development, would you not agree? Derek Twigg: Can I get back to you? I will write to the Committee on that specific issue. Q555 Chairman: Yes, with the view as to whether or not it should be? Derek Twigg: Yes. Q556 Chairman: Just in terms of this sort of perceptual thinking that we were talking about and the organisations that you would like to link up with, can I just confirm that the ones you have mentioned already are the Learning and Skills Council and the Council for Environmental Education, but what about Ofsted and QCA? They came to see us yesterday and their evidence suggested that there has not been a great deal of dialogue with them about future development? Derek Twigg: Again, I hate to repeat myself but it is something I want to improve on and take forward and they will be some of those organisations I want to have a meeting with to discuss this particular area. In fact, I am seeing Ofsted on a general issue, so I will give you that assurance that I will raise it specifically with them then. Q557 Chairman: We will look forward to having feedback from you on that. To move on to the review of the UK Sustainable Development Strategy, following our earlier Environmental Audit Select Committee Report, subsequently I took up with the former Secretary of State for Education, Charles Clarke, the way in which DfES is working to make sure that there could be revised indicators in the outcome of the UK Sustainable Development Strategy. Indeed, Charles Clarke did reply to me and said that Defra were undertaking a widespread consultation on the review and that the revised Strategy would be published in the spring of 2005. I understand entirely, Minister, that you are new to this brief and I would not expect you to give me a hard and fast answer now and I would not expect you to go into detail either. Given that this Strategy is going to be published in the spring, can you reassure us perhaps, on ESD and in particular the issues which I raised about revised indicators, that you are working with Defra on that and, if so, with whom are you working in Defra on that and is that something which is being looked at very closely? So that I will not have to write to the new Secretary of State for Education asking why it is not in there. Derek Twigg: It is something I will pick up. Mr Stevenson: It is being looked at very closely and we are working hard with officials in Defra and right around the Whitehall round table at two categories of indicators: the general indicator, in terms of five good GCSEs, overall educational attainment, and indicators which will be relevant specifically to awareness of sustainable development. That is ongoing. Q558 Chairman: Can I press you just a little bit more on the relationship of the Department with Defra in respect of this particular Strategy. When Defra came to see us, we rather got the impression that, because DfES is taking the lead now, and rightly so, on certain aspects of education, it was not a matter for them, it was a matter for DfES. I just want to make sure that you are satisfied there is the right leadership on education matters and that you have the right structure and relationship between DfES and Defra on this. Would you like to comment on that at all? Do you have meetings with the Green Minister in Defra on this? Derek Twigg: I have not had one yet. Q559 Chairman: But there is one in your diary? Derek Twigg: I will have one. Q560 Chairman: Is this likely to be on the agenda? Derek Twigg: I will put it on the agenda for when we have the meeting, yes. Q561 Mr Thomas: I wonder if I can ask you about the Tomlinson Report, because a number of witnesses and evidence to our inquiry have expressed concern that there was little evidence of Education for Sustainable Development within that Report. Is that something that you were surprised yourself to see, considering that the previous Secretary of State himself had put such an emphasis on ESD? Derek Twigg: I would not say I was surprised. Obviously, I would be concerned that we go and look at that in more detail, and I can tell you that there are internal discussions going on about this very issue. At the same time, because we had not commissioned that paper, I cannot say more about it at this stage, but we are having discussions on this very issue. Q562 Mr Thomas: Similar to the question you were given on the Sustainable Development Strategy, I know you cannot tell us what is in the White Paper, well you can if you want but probably you are not likely to, but you can give us at least some assurance about how you want to take this forward? Your memo. to us says that it will be one aspect to be considered as implementation and development work is carried out. Surely, Education for Sustainable Development, and sustainable development in particular, is more fundamental than that. It is not just one aspect, it is a fundamental thing which should run through the White Paper and the work of the Department? Derek Twigg: I do not want to disagree that it is very important, but, as I say, really I do not want to go into the details of what may or may not be in the White Paper and pre‑empt its publication and I do not think you would expect me to do that. All I can say to you is that we are having discussions about it and I have outlined already I think to the Committee the grave importance I attach to it. Q563 Mr Thomas: I think one of the things which certainly struck me from the evidence we had yesterday was that this idea came across from some witnesses that ESD was part of the detail, and because Tomlinson did not deal at all with, I think one example given was, financial education or debt literacy, or whatever it was, because it did not deal with financial literacy, as an example, then ESD was similar, it was a detail, something that we can deal with later. Yet other witnesses have expressed concern about that approach and are saying, "Look, we're fundamentally getting off on the wrong foot here because we're setting in place fundamental changes to the curriculum, to the way that post-14 education will happen in England and we're not putting in now, at the start, an appreciation of where sustainable development has to be when inside school life"? Derek Twigg: I think we have said that, in terms of our Development Plan and in terms of the information we have put on the website and in terms of publications. In terms of the White Paper, again, I cannot go into that but I have said already, and I am trying not to repeat myself, that it is important to us and discussions are taking place around that. Q564 Mr Thomas: Can you give a commitment to us that, having had this session with us, you will be prepared to look at the workings of the White Paper and what is coming out, to make sure that ESD is going to be treated appropriately within that? Derek Twigg: We will continue with the discussions around it. Q565 Mr Ainsworth: Can we have a look at the improvements there have been to the curriculum since this Committee last reported. Here again, I am afraid we have had some pretty negative evidence. We are seeing the Geographical Association later this morning and they have submitted evidence to us which says that, despite the initiatives which you have told us about in your written memorandum, ESD appears to have a low priority in the curriculum and in schools. They say ESD cannot flourish in an overprescribed and overfull curriculum, and they say that the curriculum is fragmented, with no co‑ordination or curricula planning for ESD. This is supported by the RSPB, who likened current practice rather beautifully to expecting a dot-to-dot picture to yield a Rembrandt portrait. You have said repeatedly, Minister, that this is an important area of education. You set the strategy and the policy in your Department. Do you feel that you should be taking more responsibility for making sure that policy actually is carried through? Derek Twigg: I do not accept much of what you said as being true, in the sense of what is happening in schools. I think quite a lot is happening in schools. If I could say, and maybe repeat this as well, we are working with subject associations, the QCA, the Council for Environmental Education, New Schemes of Work Units have been deployed in citizenship, science, geography and D&T, the subjects with a statutory ESD requirement, to help both primary and secondary teachers to embed sustainable development in their teaching. The suite of units is almost complete and will be available on the QCA website, and later on the Department's new website. I have responsibility also for the curriculum and specifically for geography and citizenship, and again, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, it is an area I want to look into further to see how we can improve that. I accept that no doubt there are areas in which we can improve, no doubt there is more we can do, but I think it is also the case that we have made quite a good start already, in terms of improvement in this area, but again I would want to look at it and see what further can be done. Michael, I do not know whether you want to add anything more to the comments I have made on subject areas. Mr Stevenson: Just to say, if I may, that because of the place of sustainable development in those four curriculum subjects it does mean that every child in the country is looking at it between the ages of 11 and 14, Key Stage Three, and many who take those subjects forward to GCSE continue to study through 14 to 16. It does not feel like a negligible issue. Q566 Mr Ainsworth: We have just heard about the suite of units, so it is good to know that they are going to be finalised shortly, but, given the problems that we keep being told about, not only in relation to ESD but across the board in education, of an overfull curriculum and the pressures that we are all familiar with, unless this is compulsory in some way, what chance do you think there is of teachers really taking it up in the way that you would like them to? Derek Twigg: As you say, there is a lot to do. Q567 Mr Ainsworth: Really it is a question of whether, without an element of compulsion, which may or may not be a good thing in its own right, the suite of units, all the other initiatives, are actually going to happen in the classroom? Derek Twigg: I think I made it clear before, in teacher training, for instance, in developing this particular area within that programme. Also it is important for me, when I look at citizenship, for instance, to see whether there is a specific element we can get in there which will be part of the teaching of that particular subject. It would not be compulsory but it would be an element of that teaching. I think that would be helpful. For instance, in geography, there might be more we can do in terms of improving the agenda on that. I would want to say also that the problem is we have got many pressures in the Department for priorities. Obviously, our key aim is to improve in a range of areas, but the pressure, I think, and it is right, to ensure school improvement overall and to get resources to the front line, to teachers and pupils, is paramount. It is a balance, about how we work within the resources that we have currently, and it is whether that balance is right, and we might have a difference of opinion about that, but it is the balance I want to explore further, it is part of my remit as the Schools Minister. Q568 Chairman: Can I press you just a bit further on that because in the evidence that we had yesterday, in fact, we were concerned about to what extent inspectors were trained to be able to pick up at Key Stage Three and the extent to which ESD was being included in those core subjects that you mentioned. Do you have a view on that? Derek Twigg: I am briefed that there is an ongoing dialogue. Again, I will raise that when I meet Ofsted along with the other areas I have said I would raise with them and find out more detail, if that is obtainable. Q569 Mr Thomas: One of the things we have been able to do in this inquiry is compare and contrast the experience in Wales with that in England, where there are different inspection regimes but also, of course, in particular, a different approach to sustainable development. At the beginning of this session you expressed your interest, at least, in looking at some of the lessons and discussing that with Defra, and indeed we have an Education Bill going through the House of Lords at the moment. Do you think it is an opportunity to look at the English system to see whether there could not be some sort of duty placed on the system to meet the obligation under sustainable development, because it does seem that, at least in the Welsh context, that has brought forward a concerted and much more cohesive effort than we have had from evidence from England? Derek Twigg: I think the straightforward answer is that I would want to look at a number of options about how we could continue to make the improvements that the Committee has been highlighting and which I would like to see. I would not want to commit myself to that, but, as I said, I have got an interest and I think I want to look in more detail into what is happening in Wales and whether we can take some lessons from that. I think there is a range of options we have got to consider and certainly that is one which I will be asking officials to bring forward to me. Q570 Mr Thomas: In a way, in the context of what the Government itself is trying to achieve and when we do see, shall we say, a launch and relaunches, and it is a criticism, I know, which is made from time to time of this Government that certain initiatives tend to get rebranded and relaunched, but one thing is for certain that there has not been a rebrand and a relaunch of Education for Sustainable Development. Do you think that it is getting the emphasis that it needs as to what should be a core part of the Government's approach to young people and to the generation which is going to make decisions about the way we live our lives? Derek Twigg: The answer is, I think we could do better. I think we have made progress. As the new Minister, I shall be having a fresh look at this. I will want to see where we can make those improvements. Whether it is a relaunch, as such, is another issue, but in terms of the emphasis that I can give and the ways we can look at of improving its profile and giving a much firmer message about its importance, that is something I am looking at. Q571 Mr Thomas: That will be welcome, and I was not asking for another relaunch. The sales pitch has been a bit low key, shall we say, has it not? Derek Twigg: I would not say it has been low key necessarily. As I say, I have read it out to you, I think there have been a number of achievements and we have moved forward from where we were. Q572 Mr Thomas: Let me put it to you, if you are a headteacher you do not look only at the monthly magazine, you do not look only at what is on the web, you also read the papers, see the news, and so forth. You will see time and time again the Government associating itself very closely with a sports initiative, a citizenship initiative, or whatever it may be, and we have not had that really in the educational field, that close association between the Government leadership and Education for Sustainable Development, we have not had that really, have we? It is not to say you are not doing things but we have not had that sort of close association so that people get the impression, "I wonder if this is important for my school," and not just headteachers but the governors come in then at the next governors' meeting and say, "I saw it on the ten o'clock news, I think it is really important. I looked it up on the web and I saw it and I think we should be driving this forward." Derek Twigg: I hope I have given the impression today, at least, that I do attach a high degree of importance to it and that we do need to do more, and in part I hope that answers your question. On the other hand, it is an issue about balance, is it not, with schools being autonomous in terms of what they want to prioritise as well and how much we can be prescriptive about things and what we should be prescriptive around. There is a balance to be struck there between ourselves and the schools, but, as you say, the ministerial commitment to raise the profile as well I think would be something which would be welcomed. Q573 Mr Thomas: One of the interesting things just from last night, for example, reported in the news, was the comments of a Harvard professor who has now gone to ground, I understand, about whether women can do science. One of the first things the news did was go to the Science Museum and show how children were being taught within the Science Museum, demonstrations given of science, and in fact very much about sustainable development really, because this is about the environment and the impact we have on the earth. Also, we have had a lot of evidence to this Committee about work, publicity, like the Science Museum, Global Action Plan, amongst others; these are all projects which they have told us do not get too much support from your Department in what they are trying to achieve. Are you looking at that? Do you think that your Department is engaged enough with NGOs, with educational charities which are working now with young people, and do you think you have given them enough support really to integrate what they are doing into Education for Sustainable Development? Derek Twigg: I do recognise that. I can give you an example from my own constituency. We have Catalyst: the Museum of the Chemical Industry, which is a very important science resource and very popular with children and obviously they talk about the Science Museum, the national museum, it does have an important role to play. I asked, for instance, if there were any examples, and one or two were pulled out. For instance, from 2003, 60, CMS and DfES are funding jointly the Science Museum's Creative Canals Project, which is £260,000. The Science Museum is working in partnership with Beauchamp Lodge Settlements, the Ragged School Museum in London and the Canal Museum on the project. That is an example of just one. The context of the programme links directly to sustainable development and thereby provides valuable teaching support for this area of study and participating schools. I suppose, in a sense, the schools have got the budgets and they may choose, for instance, to go to visit the museum in my constituency as being an important part of their science development within the school. On the general issue of whether we can do more, I have got to look at that, but, again, it is about what resources we have and how we prioritise them. What I am trying to say is that it is a very important resource and I know it is well used. Q574 Mr Thomas: Can I give you an example, because resources are important but access and influence and discussion are also important. We had a specific example from Global Action Plan where they said they found it very difficult to speak to anyone in your Department above a certain grade. They did not feel that they were included and certainly did not feel that they could get access to senior officials, and they are one of these charities which are involved directly in this field. That reflects what Mr Ainsworth asked you earlier about the Development Education Association as well and the potential for a divisive or competitive environment which would not be very useful in this particular field. Do you think the Department is doing what it should, not only about resources but it is accessible, open enough, actually involving these bodies in the discussion and delivery of new ideas? Derek Twigg: Not according to this body. It is a simple question. If they said that, if you tell them to write to me we will try to arrange with them a meeting with officials. Again, it is something I will take back from this meeting today to see exactly what we are doing in that area. Q575 Mr Thomas: I am sure, after this meeting, you will look at that. It is a general thing, is it not, whether your Department is inclusive enough? Derek Twigg: I think we are. I am not quite sure why they have not had a meeting. I do not know all the details of that. For instance, yesterday, I met with the Farms and City Children charity, which is a tremendous charity, getting children out onto farms and into the countryside, and talked to them about how we help them, in terms of getting more funding but also in terms of general help. That was in my first few weeks. I can speak only from my own experience and I think we are quite an inclusive Department and we are very open to listening to new ideas. I would have to know more about what the problem was with this particular organisation, but if you ask them to write to me we will look into it. Mr Stevenson: May I add just one thing on that. I think the Department is genuinely inclusive in working with all players here, but it is often important to have a very small number of lead partners who can help the Department co‑ordinate many, many others. Two in particular have worked with the Department. In the pre-16 arena, SDC (Sustainable Development Commission), from whom we have now seconded someone who will help us forward and we have paid for that. In the post-16 arena, Forum for the Future, who, with me, have brought together many other agencies from the education sector, to whom again we have given small seed-corn funding to embed sustainability literacy right across the professions. We have taken that move whilst at the same time looking to involve all players, all agencies, Education for Sustainable Development, in our work. Q576 Chairman: We are going to move on towards that very issue of funding, but just before we leave this general area can I put it to you that in the evidence we received yesterday one witness said that really it comes down to accountability and whether or not the headteacher or the chair of governors feel that this is something that they have to do. They have no doubt about the fact that it is required of them and, given all the many demands on their time and commitment and on their staff, etc., etc., the question is, is this something they have to be accountable to somebody for, about having to do it, because if it is not it tends to get dropped off the list? Would you agree with that statement and would you agree that ESD should be one of those areas where there should be some accountability? Derek Twigg: Yes, there has got to be accountability, in the sense that we are trying to drive forward an agenda. Again, it is about balance and about the priorities as well that schools have and how we work with them, rather than being a sort of sledgehammer, saying "You will do this," how we can encourage them to work in this way and make it a priority. As I said to you earlier, I am going to give it greater priority and I want to look at ways of improving our commitment and work in this area. It is an area that I can look at and see the best way of bringing that about within the balance and resources that we have. Q577 Chairman: I think that everything we are looking at tends to confirm that the way to do it is to embed it at the very outset rather than have the add-on, end-of-pipe solution as an afterthought for just a very few. It is how the Department deals strategically with that which is important, but we look forward to hearing about progress on that, I think. If I can move on then. You have just mentioned resources and you have talked about a balance there with resources. In their written evidence to us, RSPB have been one of many organisations who have made the point that, the way in which this work actually is carried out, the non-governmental organisations, the NGO sector, are carrying a lot of the expenditure involved with the promotion of ESD and often they are caught between a rock and a hard place because there is not grant in aid and confirmed funding from Government. Very often they are at the whim of temporary funding, they have to renew applications every three years and that really too many people are failing and falling between the cracks here. Are you aware of a gap in funding at all? Derek Twigg: I am aware, obviously, that NGOs have put in bids and have not got their funding. We have talked to Defra and have had to prioritise what is available within resources, so not everybody is going to be satisfied about the resources available and about how we prioritise those resources. Q578 Chairman: You have just mentioned Defra. What discussions have you had with Defra about this? Derek Twigg: Defra made it clear what the criteria were, for organisations bidding for limited resources, and that bids were judged against those criteria, quite properly, with no guarantees of success being given to any organisation. The process for deciding which bids would be approved was done in a fair, consistent and transparent manner. Obviously, if those who did not get it are unhappy, which they will be, then it is difficult to add to what I have said, in terms of what is available and determining those projects with the priorities which Defra have laid out. Q579 Chairman: Would you see it as part of your new remit to have a look perhaps at what funding there was and what funding has been removed, and I am talking particularly about the money which came from the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme? Are you aware, first of all, of how much money has been removed from NGOs who would have been working actively on this agenda and who do not have that source of funding to go to now because of the change in the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme? Derek Twigg: My officials tell me that discussions are going on with the Treasury and Defra about this. Q580 Mr Ainsworth: With a view to what? Derek Twigg: Trying to find out whether we can find some alternative methods of funding, but whether that will happen I cannot say. Q581 Mr Ainsworth: Has anyone in Government yet established the value of the monies which have been lost as a result of the changes to the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme? Derek Twigg: I will have to write to you again on that. Mr Ainsworth: Thank you very much. Q582 Chairman: Can I go back a second to be a bit more in depth on this, because the relationship between DfES and Defra has changed really, has it not, the balance has changed? What would you think were the implications of that, with respect to funding? Derek Twigg: When you say the balance has changed, could you be clearer? Q583 Chairman: When we saw Defra and we talked about funding for ESD, "Oh, well, it's not us, it's DfES," and that was the impression we got. Looking into that, it seems that the criteria which underpinned the funding streams, that there were to NGOs who previously had relied upon Defra funding, have changed. You might say, quite rightly so, because Defra have moved on and now they are dealing with issues to do with sustainable consumption and awareness on those issues. They assume that, because DfES have taken leadership on Education for Sustainable Development, any ensuing funding requirements which follow on are now a matter for DfES. I do not see where the funding streams are within DfES to substitute for what previously was there for Defra. Have you looked at that? Are you aware of that? Are you worried about it, because I am? Mr Stevenson: Just to say that certainly, as far as I am aware, Defra encompass educational criteria within their broader criteria, and took account of the views of officials within DfES in thinking about the bids which came forward. We are also aware that both Defra are funding some education-oriented SD projects and, within our limited resources, we have a commitment to fund some SD projects as well. That is the context in which, within limited resources, we are trying to allow projects to go forward. Derek Twigg: Defra are using EAF to fund several projects which are working specifically with either young people or schools to deliver sustainable consumption outcomes, but at the present time we are waiting for an official announcement to be made on this. Q584 Chairman: In terms of the Environmental Action Plan monies that were available, which over the past 20‑odd years have funded organisations which I think you have already indicated you value, in terms of their role on the education agenda, if it were the case that the Defra criteria no longer applied to them, because those Defra criteria now operate sustainable consumption and production but in fact would not necessarily apply to education funds, and given that there is no grant in aid, for example, I know in another area, say, football, which I take a great interest in, the Football Foundation has got a grant in aid now in respect of money from, presumably, I do not know, DCMS or Treasury, but there is nothing similar, is there, for NGOs working on Education for Sustainable Development? Defra is no longer the lead body on education and if it changes its criteria, and we all want to see this whole issue of sustainable consumption addressed but the corresponding funding streams have gone, it will leave a lot of organisations in the lurch, will it not? Are you looking at which organisations Defra are no longer going to be funding and how that money can be made up from your own Department? Derek Twigg: As I say, I want to look at the criteria and examine that. Q585 Chairman: Were you aware of the criteria changing with Defra? Derek Twigg: I am aware the criteria have changed but I am not aware of the detail of that. Q586 Chairman: I think it might be helpful if you could let us know exactly how that is affecting organisations with which you work very closely? Derek Twigg: Yes. I will put it in as part of the review when we look in this area anyway, so I will make sure that I come back to you on that. Q587 Chairman: This is not just in the field of environmental issues, I think we see this across the range. A lot of voluntary organisations, no matter what their specialist area, are reliant upon three-year funding or lottery funding, and we are talking about something which is as important as this, which actually is fundamental to the way in which we are developing education. Many people have contacted us with their written evidence saying that often the only thing they can do to put this on the agenda is to have the kind of example that you talked about with the British Waterways in your own constituency, where you have got field studies taking place. I think it might be very educational for you to look at where the funding is, or is not, because the funding just is not there? Derek Twigg: I appreciate the concern and the reasons for that. To be frank as well, we have got the priorities within the budget as a whole, but within that we will look at the criteria to see whether we can actually find any way of helping. At the end of the day, I have got to look at the overall priorities I have got in this particular role that I have. I will come back to you when I have examined it and had time to think about it and reflect on the way we might be able to take this forward. Q588 Chairman: Would you agree with me that we are in the United Nations Decade for Sustainable Development, are we not, which started three weeks ago, or two weeks ago, so we are making a long-term commitment to the United Nations? Our own Government is about to take on the G8 Presidency and the European Union Presidency and is saying that climate change and sustainable development are really key issues. Would you agree with me that there should be some kind of transitional funding, at the very least, for organisations which are about to lose significant funding from Defra and are not finding it elsewhere? Derek Twigg: We are going to look at the priorities that we have got within education and the funding. Q589 Chairman: I am saying, is not this a priority, Education for Sustainable Development? Derek Twigg: It is a priority, but I have got to look at the whole and decide what the priorities are and how we can find funding for those priorities. I do want to look at the criteria. I want to go back and examine a number of things you have said today, and obviously a number of my own thoughts I have had in recent days prior to my appearance before you today, and come back and give you a much fuller answer and information and a decision about where we want to take that forward. Chairman: That is helpful. This is a sub-committee, but I think I can speak for the Environmental Audit Select Committee and the way in which we operate. We see our role very much as certainly pressing Government but at the same time making sure that we can work closely, and if there were any way in which we could be party to any discussions and to help address this issue, in any formal or informal way, at some later stage, I think we would be very happy to pursue those because it is an important issue. Mr Ainsworth: I would endorse what you have just said. Q590 Chairman: Thank you very much for coming along this morning. This has been one of the first select committees which have invited you. Derek Twigg: The first. Q591 Chairman: May I hope that it might encourage you to consider this whole subject as much a priority as does this Select Committee. Thank you very much indeed and we look forward to your many written responses to the issues we have raised. Derek Twigg: Can I thank you very much and say that I am very keen to work with you in an inclusive way. Chairman: Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr Stevenson. Witness: Mr Hadrian Southorn, Secretary, National Association of School Governors, examined. Q592 Chairman: Mr Southorn, can I give you a very warm welcome to our Sub-Committee's deliberations this morning and thank you for coming along from the National Association of School Governors. I know that you were here for the previous session with our new DfES Minister. Can I say, at the very outset, that we are really grateful to you for coming along, because I think one of the issues which have been raised in the evidence that we have had is the extent to which teachers, schools, governors and schools inspectors understand and are able to deliver on the whole issue of Education for Sustainable Development. While we appreciate that we have not had any evidence, I think I am right in saying this, from the Headteachers' Association, and no formal recognition of it I think from the School Governors, we felt it would be very important for someone like you to come along and just tell it how it is from the coal-face really. Having sat in and listened to the previous session, we will be really interested if there is anything that you just want to state at the very outset as to where you see it and where you are at and your role in the National Association for School Governors? Mr Southorn: Madam Chairman, I am the General Secretary of the National Association for School Governors, having been President in the past. I was interested in what the new Minister had to say because, from what you were saying, obviously he has got a lot to learn or find out before you will be satisfied with his replies. I hope that the same will not operate where I am concerned, but I will do my best. Because I could not see anything specific that my organisation had done with regard to sustainable development overall, I looked carefully at the fact that in our magazine and in the schools in which we operate obviously we do encourage the question of the new school development system, that it is sustainable, particularly the healthy food initiative. We have reached the situation now where in schools, and I know in my own school, one of the schools, where I am Chair of Governors, the machines which sold all the unhealthy foods are now being removed and there is one which sells healthy food. Also, there is a notice which says that chips will be served only twice a week instead of the usual five days a week. On the question of transport, through the magazine we do talk about transport because a lot of schools are going in for particularly walking-trains, to cut down on the number of schools which have pupils coming by car. I must say that at the schools I am associated with, in trying to get to a governors' meeting at the time when the school is coming out, I have great difficulty in getting into the school because of the number of parents' cars that are there. Because we are not particularly involved to the extent of holding an investigation, I took your question number four, in your 'seeking views', in response to the last inquiry, of going to embed SD more in the school curriculum, I took a straw poll round six schools that I know of in my area and I sent them the question and said "What is the situation at the chalkface?" It was quite interesting what came back. Geography was one of the issues spoken about. It is in Key Stage Three that sustainability is introduced at this stage and is mentioned as part of the programme of study, but it is not very prescriptive. Environmental change and its management are taught and the need to recognise the implications of sustainable development for people, places and the environment. It says: "but sustainability at AS and A level is a key theme running through the course" and there is a paper which is issued which focuses on sustainable development in a strong way. At GCSE level, in geography, they talk about sustainable tourism, rain-forests and also the management of industrial pollution. Design and technology, in Key Stage Five, it was reckoned that there had been the biggest improvement and raised awareness, as they had built sustainable development in the specification, and examination questions in the A2 module have used sustainable development in their questioning. That is at least in design and technology. With regard to the evidence, I have not seen anything to tell me that the DfES have taken this forward; that was the general feeling. In the note, you said: "DfES have made a commitment," and at the chalkface it seems to have fallen by the wayside slightly. In Key Stages Three and Four there has been no real development. There is a mention with regard to recycling and renewable materials, but "due to time restrictions it is hard to concentrate on this particular area." The biggest group is, of course, in the question of citizenship. As you well know, in Year Seven, in citizenship, there are so many subjects they have to deal with, such as human rights, law and justice, political systems, conflict resolution, multiculturalism, equality and diversity, the role of the media in society, then comes sustainable development and then business and the economy. It was said that "in citizenship lessons I talk discreetly, once a fortnight, in Key Stages Three, Years Seven and Eight, and in Key Stage Four. There is a curriculum in place for the ten things which I have addressed and now it is taught at each level. Sustainability development is taught explicitly as one of these things. For sustainable development, students begin by considering their personal impact on the world around them," and 'think local and global' is the attitude that is put forward. Q593 Chairman: In terms of when Ofsted come in and talk to governors, or in the everyday kind of governors' meetings that you have, would you say that there is a focus on sustainable development? Mr Southorn: I would not say it was focused all the time. As I have said, obviously, if you are in a Victorian school and you are looking forward to the Government's policy on new school development, one would look at the new school development being in a sustainable development, whereby the materials and the situation in which it set itself were conducive to that. Obviously, when school governors look at some of the plans produced by the authority they look carefully for open areas where there are going to be trees and other things. Particularly in primary schools, there is a greater emphasis on the pupils themselves actually setting up their own gardens and ponds, so that as well as helping the curriculum it gives them the idea. I would say that, particularly in primary schools, and in secondary schools, there has been a greater emphasis put on the fact that the authority does recycling, even for primary pupils. When I was in a school recently, a primary pupil saw another pupil throw away an aluminium can in the waste-bin and the child said immediately "That could be renewed and it should go as part of recycling rather than being thrown away." It is getting through but I would not say it was through the curriculum particularly, it is getting through via the other stimuli which children have: television, the newspapers, the local authority and their parents. There is some focus being given in schools but, as you have pointed out already, I suppose design and technology is the best area where sustainability is definitely strong. When it comes to citizenship, it is like Topsy, it has so many parts to it. One school in particular teaches citizenship over 20 lessons, and two of those are specifically on sustainable development. Q594 Mr Ainsworth: It is interesting to hear of life at the chalkface. What you have done actually is confirm much of what we have been told already by other organisations who view it from slightly further away than you do. Where are you based? Mr Southorn: I am based in Kent. Q595 Mr Ainsworth: The evidence you have given us is from Kent schools? Mr Southorn: The evidence is from schools within my area, yes, which I contacted on this issue. Q596 Mr Ainsworth: Your organisation is a national organisation, is it? Mr Southorn: Yes, it is. Q597 Mr Ainsworth: You have 45,000 members, is that right? Mr Southorn: About that, yes. Q598 Mr Ainsworth: Do they come from across the United Kingdom? Mr Southorn: They come from across England and Wales but not Scotland. Scotland has a different education system. Q599 Chairman: Do you meet regularly with the DfES? Mr Southorn: We meet regularly with the DfES but not particularly on curriculum issues. We have had meetings in the past with QCA about different disciplines, but I do not recollect us having any discussion with the DfES on the question of sustainable development within the umbrella of citizenship, which, of course, is the last bit which was tacked on to the curriculum. I think the problem is that, as you have found already, sustainable development, whilst it is essential, it is a question of priorities, both in teaching and in the school. It is like ICT, whilst it might touch most areas, it does not have a home of its own too strongly. Q600 Mr Ainsworth: You will be now, but previously were you aware of the Department's Action Plan on Sustainable Development? Mr Southorn: Yes. We had seen the Action Plan. Q601 Mr Ainsworth: Did it alter the way, in your schools or in any schools, in which people behaved? Mr Southorn: No, but it did alter it slightly, I think, because of the fact that there are so many action plans that one has to decide on priorities. Therefore, whilst sustainable development is an issue which is coming more to the fore, because people are worried about global warming and other problems to do with the planet, people are more planet conscious now and it is slowly coming more to the forefront through the various lessons which are being taught. Until now, when people are worried about the tsunami and global warming and other things which are happening, it has been an orphan, tacked on to the family of the curriculum. Q602 Mr Ainsworth: It is coming more to the surface now, is it? Mr Southorn: I think it is. It is coming more to the centre by pupils querying it, rather than it being part of the instruction which comes from the top. In other words, take the tsunami disaster, something which is on every child's mind, pupils are saying to teachers, "We're talking about global warming." The pupils themselves get information from the newspapers and the news then they query it with the geography teacher or when they are talking about citizenship. There is an impetus from the pupils which the teachers now are attempting to answer but which, from the DfES point of view, is not one of their main priorities. Q603 Mr Ainsworth: Do you think that we should put the children in charge of the Government's curriculum priorities? Mr Southorn: I think a lot could be done by asking particularly secondary school pupils, as well as primary school pupils, how they see their environment individually. After all, they are the future and if at this point they are not given some guidance then... Q604 Mr Ainsworth: This is all great stuff but does your organisation actually have a position of its own on Education for Sustainable Development? Mr Southorn: The organisation has not had a specific position on this, but obviously we have had a position on transport and on healthy food, and as these initiatives have come about so we have contacted and given our views to the Department. Obviously, through our own magazine, we have had articles on various issues to do with sustainable development. Q605 Mr Ainsworth: You do not have a formal position though? Mr Southorn: No, we have never had a formal position because we do not have formal positions on many things at all normally. Q606 Mr Ainsworth: Have you noticed that the situation is any different in Wales, where there is a greater duty to take account of sustainable development? Mr Southorn: Yes. The college we have in Wales, when we are talking about healthy schools, or whatever, in Wales we are ahead of the game. Q607 Mr Ainsworth: We heard yesterday from witnesses who took the view that this would never really catch on in schools, unless governors became aware of the business case for engaging with sustainable development, so that, for example, a campaign to save energy would also reduce school costs. Do you think that schools generally and governors generally would become more motivated if they saw that there was actually some sort of financial inducement to promote sustainable development behaviour? Mr Southorn: Obviously, each school has its own budget and one is forever struggling to make the budget balance with what your demands are, and of course any saving, particularly in the cost of electricity or gas or any of the other things, would be beneficial. A lot of schools in fact do take up these issues and specifically schools have used them by going into certain schemes which are beneficial to them and also beneficial to the environment. There are some schools which are pretty close to where there are wind turbines, and in my territory there are wind turbines and it is one of the outings, one of the visits, that pupils go on, to see wind turbines, to see how you can gain benefit without using up fuels. Q608 Mr Thomas: Mr Southorn, as a national organisation, do you get any funding at all from the Department? Mr Southorn: No. Q609 Mr Thomas: None whatsoever? Mr Southorn: No. We took up the issue in principle years ago that we would be independent. Q610 Mr Thomas: That is very laudable. Does the Department ever ask you to become involved in delivering its ideas or initiatives? In particular I am thinking of this field of Education for Sustainable Development and the point which Mr Ainsworth raised about governing bodies being able to change the way that the school is run, in terms of energy management or waste or recycling, or whatever. Are you ever involved in those initiatives or in training? As governors, how do you know about these things? Do you get training; do you have the ability to do that? Mr Southorn: We get training on financial management about other things. There is an emphasis, particularly among governing bodies and governors in general, towards a more sustainable environment. Therefore they are aiming that way because it is more beneficial financially and also more beneficial to the school and the environment in which the school is, and I think, in fact, a lot of schools take their guidance from and also help within the community in which they are. When they are sitting an exam., they do have contacts with the environment round the school. Q611 Mr Thomas: You said earlier that you thought most pupils actually were picking up on the environment from external stimuli outside the school, and so forth. Would you say that, in a sense, governors do the same? If a governing body does anything for sustainable development, such as change all light-bulbs, or whatever it might be, is it more likely to do that because of the environment it is in, the community it is in, the people it is dealing with, rather than anything which comes down from the Department? Mr Southorn: Yes, definitely. To some extent, other than the finance, there are very few prescriptive things that governors have to do. They have a fairly wide portfolio. There are things which are prescriptive which you have to do, but within that each governing body does its best for the environment in the community in which it is. Q612 Mr Thomas: You may not be able to comment on this, but one of the interesting things is, when you say that there is no prescriptive responsibility, of course we have here in evidence that in Wales, as a public body, a governing body itself then would have an obligation for sustainable development upon it, but presumably the vast majority of members in England have no such obligation and are not made aware of any obligation like that? Mr Southorn: No. Their obligation in law is to see that the curriculum is being used in the school. Therefore, if sustainable development, instead of being associated with various subjects, was looked upon as a sub-subject on its own and became part of the curriculum as such, rather than being tacked onto citizenship and various other things, it might be said that one of the sub-groups of citizenship, which you have to do, is sustainable development. Obviously, governors are keen on sustainable development, they are keen on anything which improves the environment for the pupils who are in the area, but I have never heard an Ofsted inspector saying, "Well, your running of the curriculum, you know, you're missing out on sustainable development." I have heard them talking very seriously about "Your act of worship isn't up to standard," but I have never heard them talking about sustainable development. Obviously, there is another avenue which you could use. You could ask Ofsted to look at the question of how sustainable development is operating over the entire school; if not, get QCA to put it in as a specific subject. Q613 Chairman: Just on that point, after our previous inquiry the DfES acknowledged that more could be done to embed sustainable development into the National Curriculum. Were you aware that they had stated their intention to do that? From what you are saying, you have not seen any evidence of it? Mr Southorn: Not until I saw your question, which said that some time ago the DfES had told you they were going to do more, and it came as a surprise to me. It did not appear to me, or to my colleagues, that I could see anything, having been involved since the National Curriculum started. I had no knowledge whatsoever that suddenly DfES had jumped onto this particular bandwagon and said "We want this to be at the forefront." Q614 Chairman: To move on, are you aware of what the National Curriculum already requires of schools in respect of ESD? Mr Southorn: Yes. Q615 Chairman: I want to press you really on just one more thing. Do you think that it is realistic to have some kind of incentivisation scheme? What do you think it would take to get this understood and implemented in schools, this whole issue of ESD? Mr Southorn: I think, first of all, it requires a ministerial statement as to how the Department sees the great value of sustainable development, which then needs to be looked upon and taken into scope by Ofsted. I think, at that point, instead of being in the shadows, it would come into the light and people would start thinking, "We're doing something but we should be doing more." At the moment, to all intents and purposes, sustainable development is within the shadow of structured disciplines within the National Curriculum. Chairman: Mr Southern, thank you very much indeed for coming along this morning. It has been very valuable to us and I hope that it will help focus minds at every level on this whole issue. Thank you again for the work that you do and for that of your organisation. Memorandum submitted by the Geographical Association Examination of Witness
Witness: Dr David Lambert, Chief Executive, Geographical Association, examined. Q616 Chairman: Mr Lambert, thank you for coming to give evidence and help us with this inquiry. We are interested from the perspective of the Geographical Association. I think you sat in and listened. Is there anything you wish to say to us at the very outset, having sat through most of this morning's proceedings, just very briefly? Mr Lambert: Yes, just briefly. Point one: it is hard to imagine that there is a more important educational aim than Education for Sustainable Development and, talking about priorities, I would have thought it is the priority. I come to this from the point of view of the school curriculum, the day-to-day experience of teachers and pupils. In getting ESD embedded in schools, I would say that teachers have a prime role. I think subjects have a key role. It has got to be long term and I would say there is a lack of strategic development at the moment. It has to involve a bottom‑up element, and I will talk more about that if you wish, and it does need to be embedded. I would agree with all of that. The only other thing I would like to say, to begin with, is something about my Association and geography, and, I promise you, for only 30 seconds, or so. It is a national Association and its membership hovers around 10,000 teachers, mostly teachers but some academic geographers as well, and a large proportion are in primary school. Geography is an outstanding educational resource, which contributes to civil society in a number of ways, but I would say principally it is the knowledge and understanding of how people occupy the planet and their relationship with it. That involves moral and ethical issues, and of course pupils' lives are central to that, and very often in good geography that is the starting-point. As we heard from the last person, pupils bring the future dimension to their learning, which is healthy. Geography is not the only contributor to sustainable development, of course, other subjects have a role, but geography has a key role, I think, because of its commitment to connected knowledge. The physical and the human worlds are connected and, where it is successful, geography understands that and tries to get pupils to understand that as well. Geography is not well understood out there, however, even in schools, and I would say that even within the geography community there is a lack of clarity about the educational potential of the subject, in particular in relation to sustainable development, and I think my evidence did suggest that. Q617 Chairman: It is very helpful to have that on the record in that way, and I thank you for your contribution there. Can I start by asking you about the needs analysis report, which I believe you wrote in July of last year and I gather was funded by the DfES. Was it published by the DfES? Mr Lambert: No. Q618 Chairman: Is there any reason why not? Mr Lambert: I have no understanding of the reason why not. Q619 Chairman: Have you discussed the report's findings with either DfES or Ofsted? Mr Lambert: Yes. Q620 Chairman: First of all, in that discussion, did the subject of it being published by DfES come up at all? Mr Lambert: I asked at the end of the meeting whether I could publish it and there is no problem about that, so the GA is looking at possibilities, but I have no funds to do that. Q621 Chairman: Would you have hoped that the DfES would publish it? Mr Lambert: Yes. Q622 Chairman: Do you know why they have not? Mr Lambert: No. Q623 Chairman: With regard to the findings of your report, what relevance do they have, in terms of our inquiry currently? Mr Lambert: I think the idea of doing what we call a needs analysis was to drill down a little bit more on what was well understood, which is that Education for Sustainable Development has not really happened yet in a widespread way in schools and, according to surveys, teachers said that they needed help. I think we needed to draw down a little bit more about that. One of the things that we have learned from that inquiry is that teachers need to make sense of the area themselves. It really is not appropriate, I think, to put material on a website and hope that somehow it will have an impact across the system. Sustainable development itself is quite a complicated idea, it is also contested. If you are going to work with that in your subject, you have to converse and have a dialogue about how your subject contributes and where it can take you. I think sustainable development is rather like an educational goal. It is where the education project can lead you to an understanding of how to address some big issues which all of us have to face, but I do not think necessarily that it can be delivered in a mechanical way, teachers have to work with it within their subject communities. That is one of the things I learned from the inquiry above all. I would just like to emphasise, I would not want to drop the term 'sustainable development' for one second. I noted that was one of your earlier questions. I think it is a very powerful term but it will take time for it to become established and grow and develop as a curriculum goal. Q624 Chairman: Would you expect your report perhaps to be essential introductory reading for the new Minister? Mr Lambert: I think it would be helpful, yes. It shows that this is a complex and long-term process in which we need to get involved and teachers need time to do the creative work which will underpin successful practice. Q625 Chairman: In terms of the outcomes of your research, do they support the general direction that DfES is taking at the moment in respect of their current activity and their plans for supporting the Action Plan and support for teachers? Mr Lambert: The support, for example, which is coming through the QCA website is fine. I think to have materials which are accessible and current and developing at that sort of level is fine, but it is not enough, it is necessary but it is not sufficient. That sort of policy level of support for teachers needs to be matched by what my Association refers to as local solutions, where teachers on the ground can interact with the good practice which is being portrayed at a certain level, the Plan itself, but make it happen locally with regard to local context and local pupils and local priorities and all that. Q626 Mr Ainsworth: Can we touch just briefly on what may be a bit of a chestnut but it is the debate about the name of all of this, whether there is actually a difference between Education for Sustainable Development and environmental education. There is a feeling in some quarters, I think, that you can call it environmental education and you are not dealing with social and economic issues which are important. Do you have a position on that, as an organisation? Mr Lambert: We do not have an official, published position yet, but we will have one shortly. Our annual conference will take place at the end of March and Jonathan Porritt will be one of our speakers and we hope to use that occasion to announce our own organisational policy position on ESD. More broadly though, speaking for my Association, I would say that we see a very significant difference between environmental education and sustainable development. We support the move towards sustainable development because it incorporates the connectedness of social, economic and environmental concerns in a way which often does not bring easy, visible solutions, it brings to the educational experience a lot of dilemmas, a lot of complexity and a lot of uncertainty. That is why at an earlier stage in these debates the GA pointed out that the pedagogics which teachers need are themselves quite complicated and advanced. This is another reason why publishing a Plan and rolling it out from the centre is not enough in itself, because teachers need to engage in some quite hard work, for example, design lessons, where children and teachers are comfortable with a complex, uncertain outcome. Education is not asking a question and providing some answers which can be learned, it is not like that. This takes hard work. This is extremely complicated teaching, where you have got 25 teenagers who themselves need controlling and organising, and so on, and you are asking them to engage in difficult, unclear, uncertain outcomes with a very strong futures orientation. This is ambitious, tough teaching and it will not just happen. Q627 Mr Ainsworth: Is the idea of environmental change and sustainable development part of the geography programme of study and is it a statutory part? Mr Lambert: Yes. Q628 Mr Ainsworth: For how long has that been the case? Mr Lambert: Since the launch of the National Curriculum. Q629 Mr Ainsworth: So right back to the very beginning. Does Ofsted report on the extent to which these issues are being taught? Mr Lambert: They do not publish reports in that level of detail, no. Q630 Mr Ainsworth: Are you aware of whether or not they look at it? Mr Lambert: I am not in a position to say; in my experience though, not systematically. I think that must be a question for Ofsted. Q631 Mr Ainsworth: I see from your evidence and the Executive Summary of the survey that your focus groups thought geography was the subject in which ESD could be embedded but that the teachers felt themselves to be marginalised in the curriculum and, it went on, "may not fully acknowledge the potential of ESD." Why should geographers feel so marginalised? Mr Lambert: Since the launch of the National Curriculum, I think there has been a range of developments, I suppose one would call it the standards agenda, which have taken place, which have given more and more emphasis to core subjects, for example, and, not intentionally, it is almost like the law of unintended consequences, you marginalise others. I would say that, what I like to call the humane subjects, geography and history and some others have felt at the end of the queue when it comes to CPD, at the end of the queue when it comes to funding sources within school and outside school, and curriculum time has been under serious pressure, particularly in the primary school. In the late nineties, indeed, teachers were told that they need not bother with geography and history for the time. That has been dealt with, but it does send a signal as to what is the most important thing. When it comes to league tables which are published and exam. results in relation to SATs scores, for example, in the core subjects, it seems obvious to me that if a school is looking at its image in the local community it has got to get that right and it will divert resources to getting those right. Q632 Mr Ainsworth: I have heard this argument many times before and I am very sympathetic to it personally, but also I suspect that if I had a dialogue with a maths teacher or a physics teacher or a chemistry teacher they would say exactly the same thing only the other way round? Mr Lambert: Actually, I would be quite surprised if that were the case. Q633 Mr Ainsworth: The status of geography then within the educational world, is this potentially a problem for geography as a delivery vehicle for ESD? Mr Lambert: Yes. As I was saying right from the beginning, geography as a school subject I do not think is necessarily understood well, in terms of its full educational potential, and by that I mean serving the goals of sustainable development. Geography is in a weak position in the curriculum, so I think, yes, I would agree, there is an issue there in terms of this sustainable development agenda. Q634 Mr Ainsworth: Have you seen any improvement in the curriculum with regard to ESD in the last 12 months, since the Action Plan came in, effectively? Mr Lambert: Yes. There are some good examples of extraordinarily interesting practice out there. We might go to them and experience this for ourselves and it would be uplifting and very reassuring. It is a bit like a bishop who believes that church attendances are very healthy. They are when he visits. As a general issue, I think it is in a weak position and that teachers need support. What I would argue for is some examples which have been enacted locally by people on the ground which are interesting and exciting and can be communicated to a wider audience, so that we get an idea that this is what you can do in school, you do not have to wait for someone to tell you, you can do it. Q635 Mr Ainsworth: Sure; but, on the other hand, there is a dialogue going on, I believe, between Government and others, including yourselves, according to their memo., about tweaking the curriculum to get ESD more fully bedded in, to use that expression. They tell us that they have been working with you, amongst others, in developing primary and secondary units within design and technology, science, citizenship and geography. You must see that as a positive development? Mr Lambert: Absolutely, and I acknowledge that. Those are appearing on the QCA website and this is good, I am not saying it is not, but it is not sufficient, I think, if you really want a long-term strategy to get this embedded. Q636 Chairman: Can I come in, just quickly, on the QCA website, because I understand that will be subsumed after March into teachernet. Do you think that is a good move, or will it make it less accessible? Mr Lambert: I think my jury is out on that. Really I do not know. On the one hand, I think it is a shame that a website which is steadily becoming known then disappears. On the other hand, it may be that the next site is more accessible, more central for teachers. I would have to have an open mind on that. Q637 Mr Ainsworth: Do you think that unless ESD becomes part of the formal Ofsted inspection framework it is never going to get the sort of attention from teachers, or indeed from almost anyone else, which it deserves? Mr Lambert: I suspect I would agree with that. I wonder whether the problem is not even more fundamental, in a sense. I mean by that, I think the Tomlinson inquiry was mentioned earlier and ESD does not feature at all in the Tomlinson Report. My view of those reports is that, in a sense, they did not really look at any educational aims. Perhaps that was not their remit but, the thing is, if you do not look at what the goals are, what you are doing this for, then things like ESD will never really get mentioned. In some sense, I think education is in a rather impoverished state of being, because we are very, very interested in mechanisms and structures and perhaps sometimes we are losing sight of what it is all for, which kind of people we are trying to produce through the school system. Those are the fundamental questions at this level, but also I think on the ground as well, and I would like to engage geography teachers and science teachers and D&T teachers with questions about what is worth teaching as well as "How do we do it?" Q638 Chairman: Given what you have just said about educational goals and given the Schools Bill which is going through the House of Lords at the moment, it is just about to start evaluation, and also looking at the Tomlinson Report, I am just wondering, in view of what you have just said, whether or not you are aware of any research which DfES is commissioning or looking into to support the future development of the Action Plan in respect of how it relates to the curriculum? Mr Lambert: I am not aware of any, no. That does not mean to say there is not any. Q639 Chairman: I think, if you were aware of it subsequently, we would be very interested to hear from you about that? Mr Lambert: Yes. Q640 Mr Thomas: I think I am right in recalling that Ofsted said fairly recently that geography was the least well-taught subject in secondary schools. Is that right? Mr Lambert: That was the headline which was attached to the report, the statement. Q641 Mr Thomas: The statement which was attached, yes. The reason I ask that is simply that the evidence you have given so far seems to suggest that geography is the natural home for a lot of this work and it is where it can become embedded most easily within the curriculum; also you have said how difficult it is to teach, for all the reasons you have set out, which I accept. Then the one time that Ofsted has said anything which perhaps relates to this it is in a rather negative context. Does not all this add up to a bit of a triple whammy against sustainable development in schools? Mr Lambert: In the statement, the Chief Inspector said that where geography is well taught it is exceptionally stimulating and motivating for children. The problem is that it is not well taught often enough nor on a wide enough basis. His criticism was partly to do with the way that geography sometimes is in a fairly reduced state, the experience is very heavily fact-based and it is not terribly well conceived in terms of its inquiry, open-ended, and that sort of thing. I read that statement and I think a lot did in the community in actually quite a positive way. The Chief Inspector was putting on record that there is considerable room for improvement in geography teaching and the goals are well worth striving for. Q642 Mr Thomas: Was part of that room for improvement the need to get children out of the school and into field studies? Mr Lambert: I do not think he mentioned that specifically in the statement, but on a broader base, yes, I would say that fieldwork is under serious threat at the moment, for various reasons this Committee must understand. If it were to be in an even more reduced state, I think the quality of geography education would go down with it, yes. I think the whole point of geography, of course, is engaging with the real world. Q643 Mr Thomas: Is a school garden a replacement for a week's field study? Mr Lambert: No. Q644 Mr Thomas: Have you seen any real changes in terms of local education authority support for the whole range of field studies, environmental education as was, perhaps now we are moving towards Education for Sustainable Development, within the Geographical Association, within your membership, the teachers? Have they seen what I suspect would not be an improvement, but are you able to discern a material difference in the way in which local authorities are supporting field studies, in particular, and the opportunity therefore for children to engage in this? Mr Lambert: You are right, there is no improvement to report. Q645 Mr Thomas: It is early years, mind you? Mr Lambert: Indeed, the support in recent years has declined, I would say. Q646 Mr Thomas: Is that something you are concerned about, as an Association? Mr Lambert: We are very concerned, yes. Q647 Chairman: Really, you would support those representations which we have received, which say that field studies are absolutely important? Mr Lambert: Absolutely. Fieldwork in this country is an absolute jewel which has built up over many, many decades and has a long tradition, and it would be a great shame for it to wither any further. It is not just work outside school during the day locally but it is residential trips, where children can engage at a very deep level with each other and with teachers, with the real world. Q648 Chairman: It is very helpful to have that perspective from you. You have mentioned your relationship with the Department, as a subject Association, and I think what has come across is that the DfES is also getting advice from Forum for the Future, Sustainable Development Commission. Do you have any perspective on that? Where do you sit? If, quite rightly, new relationships are being developed with Forum for the Future and with the SDC, where does that leave you? Mr Lambert: Perhaps in a rather marginal position, and yet I would urge, and I do, I think it is an important part of my job, as I said right at the beginning, subjects have an incredibly important role to play here. I would hope that the GA, but the other subject associations too, would have an opportunity to engage even more meaningfully with the strategy over some years. What we can bring to the table in particular is work with teachers on the ground and, as I keep emphasising, without that I think there are big holes in the policy. It is quite an important point, I think; the whole point of subject associations is that they interact directly with teachers. It is teachers who are our members, so we are not dealing with schools, we are not dealing with LEAs, we are dealing with teachers, and that is our unique contribution, it is what we can bring to the table. Q649 Mr Ainsworth: Are you a teacher yourself? Mr Lambert: I am a former teacher. I am a teacher-educator now. Twelve years in a comprehensive school: the best years of my life. Q650 Chairman: On that note, we are up against time constraints, but may I thank you very much for coming along and for the evidence that you have given us, and we hope that you and your fellow members will take a keen interest in our report once it is published? Mr Lambert: We will. Thank you very much indeed. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
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