Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-105)
17 NOVEMBER 2004
Baroness Young, and Ms Liz Parkes
Q100 Paddy Tipping: Well, I wish I could
get other people to say it is a third term issue. Let me turn
to another financial lever, which is the Landfill Tax. It is going
to go up to £35 per tonne, the alleged real price of landfill.
The majority of opinion seems to be that we ought to get there
sooner rather than later. Again, is that the Agency's view?
Baroness Young: It has been interesting
watching what has happened as a result of both tightening legislation
and increasing the costs of waste disposal because I think we
are beginning to see both of those driving real change in both
waste production and waste consignment. Inevitably, if the escalator
was to escalate faster on the Landfill Tax I think two things
would happen. One is, it would give much clearer signals and much
faster signals to our waste producers, consigners and operators,
but it would also create this kitty of money that can be recycled
back into business to allow them to adopt more sustainable waste
practices and materials resource handling practices. We would
also like to get our shovel in that one in a very modest way,
a small seaside spade perhaps rather than a shovel. One of the
major things we do not have any or much money for at the moment
is to really enforce against illegal operators and illegal waste
dumping. We know from experience in Wales, where the National
Assembly for Wales funded us to do additional work, that the payback
on that is huge. Small amounts of additional surveillance working
jointly with local authorities can produce major enforcement action
and really pick up on that end of the waste market which is making
big profits out of illegal waste activity and really is distorting
the playing field for other legitimate businesses. We think that
means that this is not an unfair call on the BREW money,[1]the
Landfill Tax money, because it will be helping a level playing
field to allow legitimate business to operate properly.
Q101 Paddy Tipping: So why is the Landfill
Tax escalator not running more quickly? Why are people cautious
about it?
Baroness Young: I think there
was a feeling that there needed to be time to let the system adjust,
but I would hope that very shortly we will be able to show through
the figures we are gathering that the system is adjusting quite
quickly and it may well be that there is a case to be made for
a faster escalator. I do not know whether Liz wants to come in,
because she was involved in the discussions.
Ms Parkes: I think it is also
important to look at the overall gate price. We have seen about
a doubling in gate prices for hazardous waste since July and I
think it is important, as Barbara says, that we take time for
the market to settle down and see what the impact is with full
WAC next year as well. So I think it is about looking at the total,
not just the Landfill Tax component.
Q102 Paddy Tipping: In a sense that is
the essence of the problem. We need a strategic input of these
things and yet if we have got a market operating and sitting on
the two horses it is not very easy, is it?
Ms Parkes: Well, certainly it
would send a clear signal, as Barbara said, if it was going up
more quickly.
Q103 Paddy Tipping: Right. Just tell
me about Landfill Allowance Trading Schemes (LATS). Are they going
to work?
Baroness Young: Oh, the system
will work. It will be tough, as you heard from David, for those
local authorities for whom they have got the proposition in the
pipeline that will get them to a point where they are able to
get out from under the penalties, but it is an incentive scheme
and incentive schemes are about promoting innovation, promoting
faster movement than hitherto has been the case, and therefore
we support it and we will be helping Government with the administration
and the monitoring.
Q104 Paddy Tipping: Can you not name
a name or two? Which local authorities are going to get to their
targets and have credits to sell?
Ms Parkes: I am not in a position
to comment really on which local authorities may or may not.
Q105 Paddy Tipping: Are there going to
be any?
Ms Parkes: I suspect some will
be able to rise to the challenge. I think one of the challenges
at the moment is that people are looking at waste streams and
at the technology to treat the waste streams and what we need
to see is a shift towards looking at what the market wants, what
the market needs, so that we are not just looking at diversion
from landfill but at how we can use those valuable resources in
a more sustainable way. I think that is going to be one of the
true tests over the years to come.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
There may well be some further points that we would like to put
to you in correspondence. I apologise for the disjointed nature
of our proceedings and as we may well start voting again sometime
around about five o'clock we would very much like now for the
CBI to take your place, but thank you very much for coming.
1 The Business Resource Efficiency and Waste programme. Back
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