Examination of Witness (Questions 200-219)
1 DECEMBER 2004
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY, MP
Q200 Paddy Tipping: I
would like to take you elsewhere to environment legislation, most
of which comes from Europe now. I am always struck when I go across
to the EU how highly they speak of British officials and British
ministers and yet we do seem to have difficulty translating Directives
into practice here in the UK, and landfill is an example, refrigerators,
dare I mention them. What is going wrong? Why do we find it so
difficult to agree the principles and then to turn the rhetoric
into reality?
Mr Morley: I do
not think it is so much that we find it a problem agreeing the
principles. I think it is that we start from a lower base in relation
to waste disposal than many European countries because we have
had this reliance on cheap landfill that many other European countries
have not and that has influenced the operation of waste collection
and disposal in this country. I think that if we look at some
of the recent legislation, and hazardous waste is one example,
I come back to the point that there are only two countries in
Europe which have actually transposed the Hazardous Waste Directive,
and we are one of them. Now, in relation to hazardous waste, this
is an area where we are very much in the lead in relation to what
we are doing in European terms and it is fair to say that we have
not always been in the lead in relation to waste management in
this country, but that demonstrates what we can do and we have
managed to do that. I also think that some of the methods of treating
waste, some of the new innovations that we are seeing are also
ground-breaking in terms of particularly classification methods
and energy from waste and some of the new investments which have
been put in place in this country. We started at a disadvantage
and we started from a very low base in relation to the way that
we manage waste in the UK compared to Europe, but I think we are
catching up rapidly and I think that where there has been recent
legislation, such as that on hazardous waste has demonstrated,
we are actually giving a lead on that.
Q201 Paddy Tipping: When
the private sector say to us, "We're not involved early enough
in implementing Directives", do you think there is any validity
in that?
Mr Morley: Every
effort is made to involve the private sector in implementing Directives
and of course we introduced in this country regulatory impact
assessments and the UK has been pressing for the EU to introduce
them into European legislation, and indeed we are beginning to
see that. That is part of taking into account the effects of regulation
on industry and the regulatory impact on industry and, speaking
for myself, I am very keen to involve all sectors who are affected
by EU Regulations as early as possible and to involve them in
the actual process, and we have made a big effort to do that in
Defra.
Q202 Paddy Tipping: What
about this complaint that is often around and we have even heard
the Prime Minister saying it, that we gold-plate our transmission
into UK law? Perhaps I will take the Prime Minister's name out
of this! Is there any validity in this criticism?
Mr Morley: I do
not think that in relation to the way that we are transposing
current Directives on waste we could be accused of gold-plating
them. I think that we are doing them in a pragmatic and sensible
way in line with the requirements of the Directives and I do not
believe that we are adding additional burdens or requirements
to those Directives which would fall on UK industry.
Q203 Paddy Tipping: I
have got colleagues here, and you can think of them as well, who
would say, "These wicked foreigners, they're not playing
the same game. It's not a level playing field".
Mr Morley: You
always get these allegations and of course we always invite people
to give us examples and where there are examples, then of course
we will take action by raising it with the Commission and insisting
that people comply with the Regulations. The Commission themselves
are not slow in coming forward in taking action against countries
whom they believe are not in compliance with the Regulations.
They will bring infraction proceedings and they have done it against
a number of countries. It is also fair to say that some of these
Directives were passed a very long time ago in this country and
they have never been properly implemented and that is what we
are trying to do at the present time.
Q204 Mr Lepper: Can I
just bring you back to a local authority issue again, Minister.
You talked earlier to David Taylor about the resources that go
to local councils to deal with waste management and you have also
talked just now about the need perhaps for a greater sense of
urgency and political will on the part of some local authorities,
but it does seem to me that one of the problems that some local
authorities confront, despite the resources, despite the political
will, is the planning process. My own local authority, a unitary
authority, has joined with our neighbouring county authority of
East Sussex in coming up with a strategic waste management plan
which seems to have been around and been kicked around from one
committee to another, from one public inquiry to another for something
like five or six years now. Meanwhile, we find ourselves faced
with possible penalties as a local authority for failing to meet
the various targets and we get another political party, not represented
around this table at the moment, in East Sussex discovering that
around about election time all the waste that we are talking about
comes from the city rather than from the county. Now, what has
Defra got to say about the local planning policy and indeed planning
strategically for waste management insofar as the planning process
itself affects it?
Mr Morley: There
is a real issue of planning, particularly in large infrastructural
projects and the fact is that we do need a lot of additional facilities
within this country to deal with waste, to deal with it properly
and safely and also to minimise it. Now, wherever you have an
application for a new facility, whatever it is, from the controversial,
such as an incinerator, to what you might regard as non-controversial,
such as a composting site, there is always opposition to it. Now,
the ODPM are reviewing the planning guidelines and PPG10 is the
one which relates to waste planning. That is currently being done
by ODPM and the approach taken there is actually to have a more
strategic approach to the facilities which seem to be required
in relation to waste treatment. It also seeks to involve communities
more in relation to the kind of decision-making process and what
needs to be done in a strategic way, a bit like a structure plan
approach, which I think is the right thing to do. That is in its
final stages of completion.
Q205 Mr Lepper: And Defra
is working with ODPM on that?
Mr Morley: Yes,
we have been very much involved with ODPM on this because of course
it is of key interest to us in relation to the planning structure
because you are quite right to say that the planning process has
slowed investment in the infrastructure and that is not helpful
in relation to the urgency that we have in terms of meeting these
targets.
Q206 Mr Lepper: When do
you anticipate that guidance will be published?
Mr Morley: In the
very near future in relation to PPG10. I can let you have that
later on.
Q207 Mr Drew: I am sorry
to go to something else, but it follows on directly from David
Lepper's point which is connected to the planning process which
is that many authorities, as you know, are taking on large PFI
projects and the problem with that is that to actually get them
under way, notwithstanding the planning process, does take a considerable
amount of time. The biggest difficulty with that is that with
the pressure coming on in terms of the fines and the charges which
are going to be put in place for household waste so it is not
diverted away from landfill, local authorities feel they are damned
if they do and they are damned if they do not. Can you give us
some reassurance that there is going to be some level of tolerance
so that if there is a clear indication that authorities are going
to deal with their real waste problems, they will not be at least
hammered in the short run?
Mr Morley: Well,
I think we have to look at the particular instance and the circumstances
of a case because I go back to the point I made earlier on, that
local authorities have known about these changes for a very long
time and whilst there may well be some genuine cases of delays
in the planning process, that might be only for one aspect in
relation to waste treatment and it should not really be an excuse
for not meeting the targets.
Q208 Joan Ruddock: I want
to turn the Minister's attention to health issues in relation
to waste disposal, with which I know he is very familiar, with
reference to the Government's report on the Review of Environmental
and Health Effects of Waste Management—Municipal Waste and
Similar Wastes which was published earlier this year.
Mr Morley: That
is right.
Q209 Joan Ruddock: I think
that the Minister's view of that report in its presentation was
that the public was not really at serious risk from these sources
as compared to the risk of—
Mr Morley: Everyday
life.
Q210 Joan Ruddock: Yes,
indeed, and that less than 1% of dioxins were being received by
the population from waste incineration. However, you will know
that that has not satisfied many of the people who have looked
at this report and indeed we have had evidence from people who
are very concerned about how that report is actually impacting
on government policy, so my first question would be: how are the
findings of that report influencing the Department in the way
that it approaches waste policy?
Mr Morley: The
report was produced by Defra for the benefit of local authorities'
decision-making so that we give them a better idea of health risks
associated with all methods of waste disposal. What the report
showed was that there is an element of risk with all methods,
but the risks were low, as you quite rightly stated. It also demonstrated
that there were gaps that we needed to fill in relation to our
knowledge, although, as it happens, incineration, for example,
had more data on that than just about any of the disposal methods
because of the requirement of air monitoring and the studies that
go with that, but we have commissioned further work and there
is further research being done on the basis of that report. However,
the belief of our scientific advisers is that the basis of that
report should give confidence to decision-makers in terms of the
particular waste disposal treatment method that they would want
to choose for their local area, and in fact the risks associated
with it are low, but there is more work that is being undertaken
in relation to health risks.
Q211 Joan Ruddock: But
has it resulted in any changes in direction or reinforcement of
directions being followed? What has been the impact on the thinking
in Defra?
Mr Morley: It has
not really changed Defra's thinking because our view is that it
is up to the local authorities, the waste disposal authorities,
to determine what is the most appropriate method of waste disposal
in their areas because it is going to vary in terms of circumstances,
but they should not be deterred from considering the full range
of options.
Q212 Joan Ruddock: You
say that with great confidence, but you may be aware of the Royal
Society's concern about the data and the way in which the study
was conducted.
Mr Morley: Yes.
Q213 Joan Ruddock: Is
that the reason for the additional work?
Mr Morley: Yes,
it is part of the reason for the additional work because Defra
asked the Royal Society to peer-review the report and the Royal
Society did identify some concerns in relation to the data and
interpretation, not concerns that would invalidate the conclusions
of the report, and that was not the view of the Royal Society,
but they did raise some issues which we do take seriously and
there is further research which has been commissioned.
Q214 Joan Ruddock: Are
you able to tell us what research that is?
Mr Morley: Actually
one of the areas was composting and biodigestion which are relatively
new technologies and there is relatively little data, particularly
in biodigestion, and that is one of the areas where more research
is needed.
Q215 Joan Ruddock: Let
me ask you now to consider the cement kiln issue which has been
raised with us by particularly the Welsh Local Groups Network.
They make reference to the fact that previous environment committees
have made very critical reports on the issues of burning waste
and cement kilns and that, as a consequence of that, a special
protocol was adopted for the authorisation process. It does appear
that now the Environment Agency is setting that aside and encouraging
burning in cement kilns which would not previously have been authorised
by that protocol.
Mr Morley: I do
not know whether it would be fair to say that the Environment
Agency is encouraging the burning of waste that was not there
previously within cement kilns. Whatever is burned in cement kilns
is very, very tightly regulated in relation to the emissions and
potential effects on people and the environment. Whilst it is
true that the Environment Agency have certainly been reviewing
and consulting on the protocols, which is quite right and proper,
the Environment Agency, as regulator, are not allowing anything
to be burned within their cement kilns which could have a detrimental
effect on the environment or people.
Q216 Joan Ruddock: Well,
that is a matter of judgment, is it not?
Mr Morley: It is
actually a matter of statutory requirement.
Q217 Joan Ruddock: But
they are permitting a wider range of hazardous wastes, I understand,
to be burned.
Mr Morley: Yes,
that is part of the consultation.
Q218 Joan Ruddock: So
it is only consultation, it is not a decision?
Mr Morley: It is
consultation in relation to the protocols which have been applied,
but I think that there has been some waste which has been given
permission to be burned in cement kilns which has not previously
been burned.
Q219 Alan Simpson: Minister,
it was not exactly Apocalypse Now, but Recycle Now, the
big advertising campaign to encourage the public to do more in
the way of recycling, was launched on 20 September?
Mr Morley: That
is right, yes.
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