Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 379)
WEDNESDAY 23 FEBRUARY 2005
MR IAN
BATEMAN, MR
DON LACK
AND MR
BILL EDRICH
Q360 David Taylor: The last part
of the question is: can all of this be handled within a voluntary
framework? The frustrations that I had trying to be involved in
this sort of programme were significant some years ago. Is there
not a compulsory element or a formal structure needed? Should
it not all be done within the UK Climate Change Programme, for
instance?
Mr Lack: Certainly on the utility
side if we can get the right meters fitted in the buildings so
that they can provide half-hourly data across gas, electricity
and water, that is a simple operation that would enable the data
to be available. That does not happen in existing buildings; most
public sector buildings do not meter water half-hourly at all,
gas very rarely, electricity only if it is above 100 kilowatt.
We are doing it across all our buildings. Coming back to your
point about can we turn it into real actions? We have people who
go out to the buildings and explain to them how it actually works.
We utilise a thing called a Display Certificate, which is a forerunner
to the Energy Efficiency European Directive, which goes into buildings,
which shows how much energy that building has used. All local
authorities will need to do that in January 2006. We are doing
it now in our buildings; we are part of a European project to
do that, and we are putting people into the buildings to educate
and to raise the awareness. But in fact when you send one of these
little charts with a pictorial diagram showing when it was used
and where it was used the day before to the manager or the person
responsible for that building, and you have at the bottom how
much it has cost them, that works—they turn that into action
straight away. That is behavioural change and we can see it happening.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Candy.
Q361 Ms Atherton: I would like to
ask a question on regeneration issues. There are many schemes
going on around the country—Thames Gateway, Urban Regeneration
Companies, many local authorities working with RDAs and others.
Do you get a sense that there is a real push from ODPM to make
sure that climate change and energy efficiency are at the very
top of all these regeneration plans? I sit on an Urban Regeneration
Company and we are committed, but I do not get it as a central
tenet.
Mr Bateman: I think with the recent
issue of PPS1, which has a significant chunk on climate change
right up front, if it is not now a part of that process it certainly
will be in the future because it is there now in black and white.
I think all authorities will be required to take on board the
guidance that is provided there.
Q362 Ms Atherton: But there are opportunities,
with the scale that we are talking about, actually to have a real
impact on driving down the costs.
Mr Edrich: I think would be helpful
for public authorities would be if we had maybe some powers to
insist the renewable energy targets that are carried out, just
to have that sort of power there. It does not necessarily mean
we would actually have to use them as local authorities, but that
would certainly help the case and then it is up to the local members
and the local regions to decide whether they would want to use
that or not, to do with whatever the feeling is in that sort of
area. Another sort of area about that is to look at Regional Spatial
Strategies as well. Certainly within the Yorkshire and Humber
Regional Spatial Strategy there is quite a large discussion around
climate change and looking at renewable energy targets and things
like that as well. So, yes, it is coming through, is what I would
say.
Mr Bateman: It has found its way
into the Devon Community Strategy through the Devon Strategic
Partnership as the key issue in terms of environment to be addressed.
So it is moving out into the community in that way too.
Mr Edrich: There are also tensions
though in these large regenerations that local authorities and
planning committees actually have to deal with and that is a real
problem and real difficulty, because what we have is a society
that has still not completely gone over to a low carbon society,
so we still have these tensions there and they are actually part
of any decision- making, whether it is at a local level or a national
level, or even at an international level.
Mr Lack: I think the other key
thing about regeneration is in a lot of local authorities areas
they become arm's length operations and are not directly controlled
by the local authority. I am not saying it is a definite barrier
but it is another mechanism to go to, and then they do have to
make decisions around affordability. We will see standards on
building control standards current, as being the minimum standard
that you would be aiming for. You would want to be aspiring to
much better, so the challenge is to design to better standards,
and sometimes obviously that has to be traded off against the
cost-effectiveness of going for those higher standards—is
there a cost and can you argue the case? It depends how strong
an influence you can have over your regeneration companies as
to whether you can—not make them toe the line—make
them go the extra mile, and what is the incentive and encouragement
for them to do that? I think that is an area where there might
be a opportunity in the future to make some concessions as to
whether there will be a win-win from it, rather than just having
it as a challenge that you could go to the higher standard, but
what would they get back for that, what additionality would they
get back for that? And I think that is an opportunity.
Mr Edrich: Obviously the building
regulations are being reviewed anyway.
Chairman: We are going to look at that
with Alan Simpson's questions.
Q363 Alan Simpson: Chairman, I was
going to begin by asking Mr Lack to take us through the details
of the proportion of energy supplied by Leicester to its own properties
that comes from renewable sources, but I think he may have given
an answer to that in relation to the wind farms and the town halls.
But perhaps I could widen it? I think it would be helpful if the
Committee were able to get from the LGA some breakdown of the
Beacon authorities or Beacon achievements of your own Local Heroes
that we should start pulling together as the template for a national
strategy. If we could ask for that it would be extremely helpful.
Mr Lack: I am sure the LGA would
be happy to provide the list of the Beacon authorities and also
the authorities—
Q364 Alan Simpson: I am not asking
for a list of Beacon authorities, I am asking for a list of Beacon
achievements, of what measurably, collectively the LGA would want
the Committee and the Government to recognise is already in place
with measurable impact, which we could then draw together. I think
that would be helpful. My questions are more about the ability
that you have currently to impact on building regulations. I am
happy to start from Leicester and say that if you were to look
at the properties that have gone up over the last 10 years, what
proportion of them in the public sector or the private sector
for residential or private commercial, generate any of their own
energy?
Mr Lack: Within the housing sector,
over which we have direct control, our own stock, we have been
able to rebuild some of the old "Boot" houses in Leicester.
They had been built to the maximum NHR standard of 10 at the time—this
was all done in '96. I cannot say to you that they have all got
renewable energy systems but some of them were fitted with solar
thermal panels, but unfortunately because of the right to buy
they no longer belong to us because they were seen as a very good
offer to take houses over.
Q365 David Taylor: We are talking
about the Saffron Estate?
Mr Lack: Yes.
Q366 Alan Simpson: This was built
in the last 10 years?
Mr Lack: Within the last 10 years.
But coming back to the question you were going to ask me but you
did not, which was what percentage of renewable energy do we have
across our own buildings? That is 33% from renewable energy, which
is procured from the region. The reason we cannot have any more
than that is because we generate our own electricity as well and
we cannot put that at risk by going on to maximising further renewables.
Q367 Alan Simpson: So you generate
that from?
Mr Lack: From combined heat/power,
within district heating estates, and put that back into the system.
Q368 Alan Simpson: But to come back
to this question that I did ask, and that is going beyond the
estates that you build and are now sold, what proportion of the
other buildings that have gone up in the last ten years have you
required to have a proportion of energy self-generation?
Mr Lack: We do not build many
new houses ourselves, we are not allowed to.
Q369 Alan Simpson: Let me be clear,
I am not talking about you as a builder, I am talking in terms
of local authority powers and the obligations that you as local
authorities—and I am not necessarily asking about Leicester,
I am asking for an LGA response on this—how far are you
successful in making energy self-generation a precondition of
planning consents and part of building regulations?
Mr Edrich: The first planning
consent really is to go back to the Merton Ruling, where Merton
was challenged and won its planning challenge to require installation
of renewable energy on a large development by the Government Office
of London. That was fairly recent, probably within the last two
to three years. I would say that nationally probably very little
has actually happened or been required by local authorities prior
to that, and this is where the building regulations can play an
important part, especially as the building regulations are going
to be reviewed this year. We would like to see an embedment of
energy efficiency renewable energy into building regulations as
a local government situation, and we would certainly also like
to see the embedding of sustainable construction principles and
approaches within the building regulations as well. What we mean
by that is something like eco homes or the building research establishment
environment assessment model for commercial buildings. Those are
the two areas which would be very beneficial, and the reason for
building regulations is that they actually provide a level playing
field across the country and there is a statutory duty to undertake
the work as well and that is checked by local authorities. So
that is what we would like to see.
Q370 Alan Simpson: You will know
that there is a Government commitment to having 15% of our energy
supply coming from renewable sources by 2015. Are you asking for
the right to incorporate that as a requirement in building regulations?
Mr Lack: We are being asked in
our standards. In Leicester our target is 20% by 2020.
Q371 Alan Simpson: The national figure
is 15% by 2015.
Mr Lack: Yes, but we have been
working since 1990 for a 20% by 2020 as across the whole of our
influence, and the estate that is being built by private developers
now, 4,000 homes in Ashton Green in Leicester, all benefit from
renewable energy. It has to take its energy sources from renewable
energy, and it always has to be the high standard of energy efficient
homes.
Q372 Alan Simpson: Is that 100% renewable
energy?
Mr Lack: It will not be 100% because
there will be times when they will need to have a backup supply,
but the desire is that they are carbon neutral homes and they
are very high efficiency standards and they are to maximise renewable
energy. How they do that is down to the individual developer as
to which way they would achieve it. The point I was going to make
here is that the local authority owns all the land, that is how
it has been able to put this caveat in there, and without that
it could not have done that, so it has to be fair across the board.
And the trade-off that is one of the problems that has delayed
the sale of the land is that our property services want to maximise
the revenue for this land and the developer is saying that you
are putting such high standards on it that we want to trade that
revenue off, and there is a conflict of issue there. But that
is the standard that we are going for.
Q373 Alan Simpson: Let me come back
again to the question which I have asked, which is that in the
representations being made by the LGA to Central Government are
you asking for a 15% by 2015 or a 20% by 2020 figure to be allowed
to be put into building regulation requirements so that that is
the new level playing field?
Mr Edrich: I think what we would
say to this Committee is that we are requiring or we would like
to see a requirement within the building regulation for renewable
energy. I suspect our submission to the Building Regulation Review
this year will actually come up with a figure that we would be
looking for. But I would suspect—and this is from consultation
with other officers and members—that we will probably be
in line with whatever the national and international target is.
Mr Lack: If you say 20, does that
stop you getting 25 or 30? There is always a danger. Does it become
the standard that everybody works to?
Q374 Alan Simpson: If you say nothing
you get nothing, is that it?
Mr Edrich: The other issue about
it is, is it embedded or can it be off site?
Q375 Alan Simpson: At this stage
I do not care, I just want to know whether that is something that
you are seeking as an obligation rather than a wish list.
Mr Edrich: Absolutely.
Q376 Alan Simpson: Two further technical
things. At a previous session the Chairman drew the Committee's
attention to someone who had managed to install solar panels for
a photo voltage roof and they had to take them down because it
was a conservation area. Are these issues that you are trying
to address and in what ways are you trying to address the issues
about incorporation of renewable responsibilities into sensitive
areas like conservation areas?
Mr Lack: We certainly have a very
positive methodology in Leicester and there will be other examples
as well, but one of the things we are doing is to have a solar
rental system, which is aimed at anybody—fuel poor, anybody,
because you do not buy it, you rent it—and we come along
to the building and do an energy survey and make sure that the
building is facing the right way, it is orientated the right way;
we make sure the building is energy efficient and if it is not
we will make it energy efficient.
Q377 Chairman: You turn houses round,
do you!
Mr Lack: We turn them round to
become energy efficient. So the idea is that you make the home
energy efficient and the reward for that is that we then install
a solar rental system. But we do that with our planning departments
involved. So if we are in an area which is a conservation area
and there is a restriction on the front of the building there
and the panel should have gone there, we can put the panel
remotely—it does not have to be on the building, it does
not have to be on the roof, it can be in the back garden—as
long as it can be faced directly. It is a technical fix, so there
are ways of doing it.
Mr Edrich: In our authority it
is taken on an individual basis.
Alan Simpson: It is helpful to have this
evidence, this information about Leicester, but what we are receiving
here is evidence from the LGA, and it is about LGA policy and
the representations and the position that you are taking. I am
sorry to sound finicky, but we have this with other people who
come and give evidence to us, that they sound out the best to
us as though it is representative of the rest, but it is not.
So I would ask you to come back to us in respect of the LGA.
Q378 Chairman: I think the point
that Mr Simpson is making is that it would be helpful to have
an assessment in terms of you represent very good practice, but
how the rest of England's local authorities stack up. In other
words, what is the potential to be had if other authorities were
as rigorous as you have illustrated to us, because the Leicester
approach is quite remarkable, I have not met anything like that
before; but how many local authorities do not adopt as rigorous
an approach as you do?
Mr Edrich: There are quite a lot
that do, that is the whole thing. There could be three other people
sitting here.
Joan Ruddock: In terms of the material
that is being sent, that is already being sought and the points
that you are just making, could we know the cost of installing
the intelligent monitoring systems that you have in Leicester,
because to know what that would cost, to see if it could be rolled
out across the whole country would be a very important point for
this Committee?
Q379 Chairman: You have the idea.
Mr Lack: Do you want me to give
it to you now? It costs 17p to get the data from the meters, that
is the actual cost, and the return is £1.11.
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