Examination of Witness (Questions 113-119)
9 NOVEMBER 2004
LORD HASKINS
Q113 Chairman: Chris, thank you very
much for coming. You were the originator of the report published
in November a year ago that started this work off, and I am very
grateful, and the Committee is very grateful that you have been
prepared to come along because, in a sense, quite a lot of time
has passed since then and there is a feeling really that you provided
the report, you provided a road map and implementation is up to
somebody else.
Lord Haskins: Very much so.
Q114 Chairman: We were just very pleased
that you were able to come. I know the Committee has talked to
you about this whole issue before. I wonder what you think because
you have the reputation of being a lateral and radical thinker
and here we are, the Government has accepted most of your
recommendations, and I think you have said in the press, "Perhaps
I have not been radical enough".
Lord Haskins: Very much so.
Q115 Chairman: What else would you have
done then? If you thought you could have got away with it what
else would you have recommended?
Lord Haskins: I think I would
have said not only were there too many funding streams but there
was actually too much money swilling around in the system full
stop. I think some of the areas which the Government has bought
into, like on the Forestry Commission, I understand the politics
of, but on a day-to-day common sense basis the Forestry Commission
should be more integrated with the Integrated Land Management
Agency than it is. I would go for separation more rather than
less now because the more I look at it the more I realise that
if you have policy-makers responsible for the delivery function,
the delivery function does not get proper attention. People have
misunderstood what I mean by separating policy and delivery. The
point about that is to make sure there is clarity of responsibility
for policy on the one hand and delivery on the other but also
to make sure that policy-makers, who do not have control over
delivery, have to consult properly on the policy-making process
with delivery people. That means the delivery people under my
proposal would have a stronger influence in policy-making than
they do at the present time where the whole thing is controlled
by the policy-makers at the centre. I think I would re-strengthen
those sorts of proposals if I could.
Q116 Chairman: Just take us through that
a bit more because I think you have said to us on previous occasions
that we spend too much time thinking about policy and not enough
on management and delivery.
Lord Haskins: Exactly.
Q117 Chairman: This runs right across
government.
Lord Haskins: Yes. I mean you
lot here spend a huge amount of time making policy. Your justification
for making the mountains of policy and I should say regulation
coming out of here is because it gives you a sense of virility
and makes you all feel terribly important. The civil servants
in Whitehall also see they are there for doing nothing but making
policy. We should get the balance around a bit more and spend
a little bit more time implementing policy and regulating and
operating the policy properly rather than waiting for every new
ministerial whim to get a new policy initiative.
Q118 Chairman: Okay, you used the phrase
a few minutes ago there is too much money "swilling around".
What would you cut out then? Just help us with that.
Lord Haskins: The report recommended
rationalising the 86, or whatever it is, funding streams, but
I think there would be a good case for tightening the budget in
some of these areas as well, to say let us make sure we are getting
real value for money for what we are spending and it would be
more effective at the receiving end as well. I feel that a huge
amount of the money that the Government spends is not recognised
as being well spent by the people who are receiving it.
Q119 Chairman: So we ought to talk to
customers a bit more.
Lord Haskins: It is always the
case that government has got to find ways of listening. In centralised
government, particularly our type of centralised government, it
is not very easy to listen to people. I was in Northern Ireland
last week, for example, for a couple of days looking at rural
development issues, and going round a small country like Northern
Ireland you are very appreciative of how because it is a small
country ministers and officials in Belfast are aware of what is
going on because the people out there ring them up and tell them.
The same thing happens in Scotland in that there is much closer
contact out there on a day-to-day basis with people. Everybody
understands where everybody else is coming from. Here the sheer
remoteness of Whitehall makes that day-to-day contact almost impossible.
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