Examination of Witnesses (Questions 162-179)
9 NOVEMBER 2004
PROFESSOR PHILIP
LOWE, MR
RICHARD WAKEFORD
AND MS
MARGARET CLARK
Q162 Chairman: We are joined by Professor
Philip Lowe, who is a Board Member, Margaret Clark, who is a Director
and who I know is going to the New Countryside Agency, and, finally,
Richard Wakeford. I do not know whether it will be your last appearance
before this Select Committee because I hear hot off the press
today that you have got a new appointment elsewhere. First of
all, congratulations and, secondly, will you tell us what it is.
Mr Wakeford: Whether it is the
last time I think is very much up to you as to whether you demand
to see me again before the New Year but in January I take up the
post of the Head of the Environment and Rural Affairs Department
in the Scottish Executive.
Mr Jack: North of the border? Leaving?
Q163 Chairman: Excellent. We wish you
well. Now the Countryside Agency is very really affected by
Haskins' proposal and Mrs Beckett's announcement. Most of Haskins'
recommendations have been implemented but some have not. The Agency
is going to remain in a different form, a new agency. Can you
just tell us the thinking that went on between the Haskins Report
being published and the Secretary of State making her announcement?
Why did the Secretary of State not do what Chris Haskins asked
them to do? That is what he was appointed for.
Professor Lowe: Lord Haskins put
his finger on it in saying that we recognised certain functions.
We were involved and still are involved in delivery of certain
small schemes in rural areas and those are going to be mainstreamed
through other organisations. It is the element which is left which
we think will be a leaner body. The Secretary of State was convinced
that that function of rural advocate/rural expert still within
the heart of the system should remain.
Q164 Chairman: I think we will come on
in a little while, Philip, to talk about the nature of the new
body and what kind of structure it is going to have.
Professor Lowe: If it gets to
details it is these guys!
Q165 Chairman: Why is it that those kinds
of policy functions could not come into Defra itself? We have
heard Haskins this afternoon talking about policy and Defra responsibility
and delivery and other issues. Why do we need this smaller, more
defined body?
Professor Lowe: We do not have
a policy-making function; we have a policy advisory one. It is
one of representing the concerns and the interests of rural people,
rural businesses and rural communities at the heart of government
but also to other government bodies and to Parliament. It is critically
in that parliamentary role that we continue to hope that we will
have a statutory function to do that.
Chairman: We will perhaps get into that
in a minute. Colin?
Q166 Mr Breed: Just a couple of basic
and simple questions I suppose. What do you envisage the role
of this New Countryside Agency will be?
Mr Wakeford: Am I allowed to do
a handout here because I thought that you would ask something
like this and I have brought a picture along.
Chairman: It is a bit like Blue Peter!
Q167 Mr Breed: Something you made earlier!
Mr Wakeford: If we could just
hand that out.
Q168 Mr Breed: Exhibit 1A.
Mr Wakeford: I thought I might
tempt you to see if you could put a picture in your report or
something like that. There is a bit of colour coding in play here
as well. What this is a pictorial version of the annex to our
advice to you which is the prospectus for the New Countryside
Agency which Margaret Beckett has agreed with the Agency Board[2]It
starts very much on the left-hand side with the people aspect
because people need to express their needs. Both those who deliver
and those who make policy need to understand what the particular
needs of the countryside are, and that is the role of rural advocacy
which is more than just the rural advocate as a person. We very
clearly want to see the New Countryside Agency as a whole as a
rural advocate. This needs investigating, filtering and identifying
priorities for actions. Some of those actions are things which
we can alert the mainstream delivery bodies, which is this green
column through the middle. I sound like Peter Snow! Part of it
is letting delivery agencies know what the priorities are when
it comes to getting delivery better. Part of it is about coming
back to government and getting the policy changed to reflect rural
needs. These curious yellow oval things [3]
are rural lenses. They are saying that when the delivery agencies
deliver they should make sure that they understand how that delivery
impacts on rural needs. In Canada they call it a "rural lens".
The next role of the New Countryside Agency, the second red box[4],
is very much as expert advisor, looking for best practice in that
delivery, checking to see how that is working, giving feedback
regionally and nationally to delivery agencies about what works
well and giving feedback to government about what works well in
terms of policy framework. The third box is this rural watchdog.
This is the important thing. This is where, as Philip was saying
earlier, the statutory role is particularly important. The Agency
needs to be a watchdog that has teeth if needed, checking the
quality of the joined-up system on the ground. Is this sustainable
development that is really being delivered to the benefit of rural
people in overcoming disadvantage? In this way we can give assurance
to government and Parliament on the one hand and to the people
on the other hand. The people can see that their concerns started
at the top left have actually been reflected in the way in which
policy is set and delivery happens.
Q169 Mr Breed: Thank you very much. Can
you explain to me what is the difference between a continuous
line and a dotted line?
Mr Wakeford: This is probably
best explained by my need for a better IT training course.
Q170 Mr Breed: It could also be the battle
plan for Fallujah in a way! I think that has answered roughly
what it is. I have to contemplate that. To go on to the next question,
the Countryside Agency have made a great deal of the statutory
framework that has got to go in the New Countryside Agency to
make it a non-departmental public agency. There have obviously
been some issues around that. Perhaps you can tell us why you
think that is an important aspect of the way in which the New
Countryside Agency will be formed.
Mr Wakeford: I think it is about
accountability. At the end of the day people need the assurance
that their rural watchdog is doing a good job for them. The best
way to achieve that is through a strong body which has the kind
of independence that a non-departmental public body has and which
an advisory body closer to the Secretary of State finds it harder
to demonstrate. If I may, I do speak with some experience here
because I am a Board Member on the UK Sustainable Development
Commission which is not regarded as having so much teeth in the
policy advice that it is giving as the Countryside Agency's at
the moment with its statutory basis. To be successful as the New
Countryside Agency we are going to have to go and tackle delivery
agencies and government departments, and that is much more effective
if it is done by a statutory non-departmental public body than
if the role of the Countryside Agency is perceived to be downgraded
by no longer having the statutory status it has at the moment.
I just want to stress that, as far as I understand it, decisions
have not been made about this. It is simply that the Secretary
of State is considering her position. We have made the case to
the Secretary of State and she has yet to respond. We reflected
that in our evidence to you because we thought that was a fair
thing to do.
Q171 Mr Breed: As far as you are aware,
there will be no financial implications one way or another?
Mr Wakeford: No, none at all.
Q172 Chairman: Why has the Secretary
of State not made her mind up? This is a fairly firm recommendation
from you. She has had seven or eight months to think this thing
through and there is a bit of a planning vacuum here.
Mr Wakeford: You will have to
ask the Secretary of State that.
Q173 Chairman: What is your view? You
have been giving her advice.
Mr Wakeford: The Secretary of
State has a lot on her plate and I really would rather not comment
or speculate on something which I do not know about. You must
ask her that.
Chairman: You will do well at the Scottish
Executive!
Q174 Mr Jack: Let me follow on the Chairman's
line of questioning because there is something you did comment
on in paragraph 2.1(v) of your evidence where you say: "The
rural strategy is not recognisable as a strategy in the way that
the Cabinet Office recommends as good practice. It is insufficiently
clear what it is trying to achieve and there are no measurable
outcomes or priorities. The Strategy needs to set the scene, be
clear about the hard choices which have been made and give a clear
context for policy-makers, deliverers and customers against which
everything can be judged." That is broadside par excellence
through what this whole thing is about. What prompted you to write
that? Is it the dying man's wave?
Professor Lowe: The Board felt
passionate about that and I suppose I pressed for that, and having
pressed for that they dragged me along. To a certain extent in
response to the previous question the important thing about being
an independent watch dog is occasionally you bite and if you are
not an independent watch dog then you are not encouraged to bite.
I think there was a feeling that the strategy was a sort of "work
in progress" but the sort of thing we were looking for from
a real strategy would have targets whereby you could measure
the achievements of all these devolved structures, where you could
measure some value for money for all the funding, that it would
have a much clearer view of responsibilities and a sharper
sense of responsibilities amongst regional and sub-regional bodies,
and that it would have a much clearer view of what works where
in different localities, with different models of local delivery.
We were disappointed not to see those elements. We are pleased
that the Department is out there doing various pilot projects
to look at different models of delivery but that is the next stage.
There are key elements that were lacking in what we thought should
be the strategy.
Q175 Mr Jack: You have spent a few minutes
putting a beautiful diagram in front of the Committee. Here is
a piece of architecture, a routing of things, whizzing around,
it all looks terribly clear, but you have just agreed that this
strategy which this mechanism may have to devise is not recognisable
as a strategy, et cetera, et cetera. Have we got to a stage where
Defra has designed something which in your judgment it does not
have a clearly defined purpose for yet?
Professor Lowe: I think more homework
needs to be done for this to be a strategy with some recognisable
targets, measures and clarity of responsibilities, yes. That is
us operating as a rural watch dog.
Q176 Mr Jack: Okay, let me move you on
to another point that you mentioned in your evidence. I really
enjoyed reading this because one player which we did not mention
with Lord Haskins was the government offices because it looks
as if another organisation has got a finger in the pie and you
say: "At regional level the government offices face a significant
challenge in their task." That is a lovely piece of language—"significant
challenge". It is like the Permanent Secretary in Defra when
he is not quite certain of something he says the task "is
challenging". So you say ". . . faces a significant
challenge in their task of encouraging an alignment of the policies
and operations of national, regional and local bodies to deliver
sustainable development goals in the countryside." That is
really racy language. What on earth does it mean?
Professor Lowe: The government
offices are being charged with quite a lot of tasks. The route
of travel that Haskins gave was a decentralisation of these functions
essentially to regional structures. The government offices are
used to being back rooms people and they being are charged with
quite a lot of responsibility now for, steering a lot of the regional
delivery. I suppose our concern is, are they equipped to join
up the elements between the different agencies—joining up
between the economic development components which are going to
the RDAs and the environmental components which are going to the
integrated agency.
Q177 Mr Jack: In the next paragraph of
your evidence you, in fairness, build on this where you said:
"Devolution of delivery to regional and sub-regional bodies
is welcome but a great deal of work is needed to clarify the roles
and responsibilities between bodies, whether in the Defra family
or wider—as seen from the perspective of rural people and
businesses." The picture you are painting is one of potential
muddle and disruption. You have this beautifully crafted arrangement
into which all these fingers are pointing or involving and integrating
themselves and then you have the government offices sitting somewhere
on the outside pulling levers and trying to influence and you
have got the RDAs doing their bit. It looks to me as if you are
trying to say in shorthand terms this is a mess.
Professor Lowe: My Chief Executive
is going to rescue me at this point, I think.
Q178 Mr Jack: No, carry on, you are being
nice and open. I am enjoying this!
Mr Wakeford: The government office
element is in terms of co-ordinating this mainstreaming of delivery.
This chart is a structure that we presented as to the way in which
the New Countryside Agency should operate. Some of the elements
you are referring to are our historical functions and they will
change as we pass them on to other bodies. As the delivery method
changes we will still want to know and have a view on how effectively
these bodies operate at the regional level. At the moment the
new method is untried and untested. New functions are being thrust
onto the government offices. New functions are being thrust onto
the regional development agencies. There is not yet a clarity
about what this should be. The government offices are going to
have to play a much more prominent role in rural delivery than
they ever have before.
Q179 Mr Jack: Excuse me, may I just ask
you, if the government offices have to play a more prominent role—and
the message from Lord Haskins was very clear, that devolving these
things down to as near local as you could possibly get is the
best form—then government offices are answerable to the
centre and they are not very good devolvers because they are a
conduit of central government policy to be implemented at a regional
level. On the other hand, we have got economic policy with the
RDAs. I am not quite certain how this new mechanism operates.
Mr Wakeford: You will see also
from our evidence that we are unhappy that more has not been said
about local authorities, that the direction of travel that Haskins
indicated was down to the region and beyond, with strong advocacy
of a strength of role for local authorities. One of the most disappointing
aspects of the Rural Strategy from our point of view is the rather
weak role of local authorities. It is silent really in terms of
what role local authorities should be playing in terms of rural
delivery.
2 See Ev 70. Diagram of The New Countryside Agency. Back
3
Marked "a" in the diagram. Back
4
Marked "b" in the diagram. Back
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