Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-348)
30 NOVEMBER 2004
LORD WHITTY,
MS OONA
MUIRHEAD AND
MR ROBIN
MORTIMER
Q340 Mr Jack: Where are they going to
acquire this expertise to do what will be quite a sophisticated
job in looking at the juxtaposition between economic regeneration
and development which the RDA will be pre-eminent in deciding,
the kinds of programmes which the local authorities representatives
were saying were crucial in terms of developing a sustainability
agenda, and the Government Offices who have a rural proofing agenda,
and somewhere in the wings the environmental agenda which sometimes
goes a bit beyond sustainability? I am not clear who calls the
shot. Who says, "I am sorry, you, oh partner, cannot do that"?
Whom in the context of the Government Office in the new architecture
do they report to? Does the Government Office person ring up the
Secretary of State or the Minister and say, "I have looked
over all in my area, my region, and I am now satisfied. Here is
my report"? Who has the final sanction in this rather now
complicated piece of wiring together which you have just described
to me?
Ms Muirhead: I think that is a
very good way of describing it, if I may say so, it is a complicated
piece of wiring we are trying to mesh together. The wiring already
exists now, we just do not think it is as joined-up as it should
be at the regional level. We certainly do not think that the environmental
voice is sufficiently strong in the partnership at the regional
level, and you heard from your witnesses earlier this afternoon
that they also felt that was the case. One of the real practical
benefits we see of establishing the Integrated Agency is that
it will be a much more powerful agency, it will have that strong
voice at the regional level.
Q341 Mr Jack: Who is going to be the
adjudicating partner? You have described what is already a very
complicated situation and you missed out in your description the
unelected but still existing regional assemblies. They have a
role in the planning process, they deal with some of the spatial
issues which you have just described, they have not been mentioned
so far but they do have an influence over what the local authorities
can do and certainly would have an input to what the RDAs might
want to do. I am not quite certain how they are wired into the
new Integrated Agency, and I certainly am not clear about what
their relationship is with the Government Offices. This sort of
collection, this cocktail, is currently in a big shaker being
shaken up and down by your Department and out of this is supposed
to flow clarity in terms of decision-making at a regional level
integrating all of these many and various functions.
Lord Whitty: It is no different.
The regions produce regional spatial plans, they produce regional
transport plans, and the local authorities are all party to them,
there has been business input, there have been various government
agency inputs and the Government Office leads that operation,
certainly on the transport side. This is no different for the
rural dimension. The Government Office will be both the catalyst
and the leader but you will have to have agreement and compromise
and so forth on what is included in the rural plan. We are not
talking about detailing where every part of every scheme will
go, we are talking about having the broad strategic approach to
rural affairs within the region signed up to by the major delivery
bodies in that region.
Q342 Mr Jack: If there is something that
jars—a big something—how does it come back to somebody,
I presume, to make a decision yes or no on the plan? I come back
to the question I ask, when it talks about "leading to a
plan", who is going to agree the plan as far as the Government
Office is concerned? Who is in charge of the plan?
Ms Muirhead: The plan will be
agreed by the regional partners themselves. I think we have to
take a step back and look at this in the context of devolution.
Defra is not shaking this cocktail mixer up, actually what we
are saying to the regional partners is, "You are the ones
who have devolved authority". Government in general sets
very strategic objectives—and we would be deeply criticised
if we tried to run local schemes from Whitehall—so with
our PSA targets we set over-arching objectives, we set the RDA
tasking framework for example, and then we say, "You have
the devolved authority at the regional level to decide what is
best for your region within those overall outcomes which Government
wants to achieve". Therefore it would be quite wrong for
us here in central government to say, "We have to endorse
your plan, it has to come back to us, we have to tell you how
to do it and which particular partners you ought to be dealing
with" because it will differ from region to region. That
is the context.
Lord Whitty: There is also an
iterative process here and there is a resource issue. The rural
strategies will be communicated to Defra, and if we have any serious
comments on them we will feed them back. But, as with the other
kind of planning which goes on at regional level, if the South
East Regional Transport Plan says they want five more motorways
and two large railways, the Department for Transport goes back
to them and says, "You will have to choose the first two
of those and not the rest." We do have some resource control
over what is delivered by the plan and what is not, albeit some
of that resource will go via the RDAs and local delivery.
Q343 Chairman: Let us take a firm example.
You were saying to us, Oona—it is certainly my view and
I do not know whether it is your view—that the RDAs have
been weak on sustainable development, on the environment, although
some are better than others. It could be the case that the RDAs
do not perform at a regional level and that the brokerage, the
discussion, at a regional level does not bring about a satisfactory
solution. What happens then?
Ms Muirhead: If I may, I was actually
saying that there has not been a strong environmental voice at
the regional level rather than making any judgment about the RDAs.
Q344 Chairman: I will say some of the
RDAs, from my experience, have not performed satisfactorily in
this respect, and that is not a minority view. So what are you
going to do to sort it?
Ms Muirhead: One of the things
we will certainly be doing is looking at the legislation to have
a wider sustainable development duty for Defra bodies and to push
that agenda in that way.
Lord Whitty: The other dimension
is, as you know, the RDAs primarily report to the DTI and the
DTI are leading the development of a new tasking framework for
the RDAs. We, Defra, will ensure there is a strong rural and environmental
dimension to that tasking framework which is in the process of
being done now, so there will be both legislation and heavy guidance.
Q345 Chairman: But you are putting money
into the RDAs.
Lord Whitty: Were they completely
out of order I have no doubt we would have to consider that. It
is easier to negotiate in a tasking framework than it is to wield
a big stick.
Q346 Chairman: We are going to have to
move on because I know people have other commitments. Can I thank
you for this very lively discussion and I am sure our report will
reflect some of these issues. You promised us, and I am not sure
we wanted them, a set of diagrams. We asked you for a set of financial
proposals, upfront costs versus savings, and as far as possible
(and this will be difficult I accept) you will use your best endeavours
to show the difference between the Haskins proposals and your
own savings. Finally, can I ask you about the time frame. You
did mention this at the beginning. The Bill around the end of
January, it might slip a bit, you cannot be firm on that, and
presumably there will then be an opportunity for some pre-legislative
scrutiny. My own contacts—you have them better in the House
of Lords than I do—suggest that the House of Lords would
like to be involved in this, which seems to suggest perhaps a
joint committee, always a very perilous approach to take, and
I think you want to be on the ground and have all this sorted
out by January 2007. Is that timetable achievable particularly
because—we do not know when—in that period there is
going to be a general election?
Lord Whitty: You know more about
these things than I do, Chairman.
Q347 Chairman: This is how he gets away
with it in the Lords!
Lord Whitty: We are proceeding
on the basis that we can produce a Bill roughly, as you say, by
the end of January, that we will then virtually immediately go
into some form of pre-legislative scrutiny, and precisely what
form that will take is up to the usual channels rather than me,
whether it is joined or separate, and we would hope we would complete
that process, assuming we meet that timetable with the Bill, by
approximately Easter. In taking advantage of that and developing
the Bill in the light of that, we still think it is possible to
meet the timetable of having most of the legislation implementable
by January 2007, but it is not absolutely dependent on that. The
reason 2007 is there, and it was in Haskins and elsewhere, is
that the new rural development regulation comes into effect then
and it would be useful if they coincide but it is not absolutely
crucial they coincide, so I am not too uptight about the end date
because there are all sorts of shadow arrangements and expectations
and ad hoc arrangements which can be made as long as everything
is in the pipeline.
Q348 Chairman: As always, thank you very
much. It is a big change agenda, the best of luck and to your
officials too. Robin is going to leave us the diagrams which look
terrifying from here. Thank you very much indeed.
Lord Whitty: Thank you very much.
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