Examination of Witnesses (Questions 445-459)
1 MARCH 2005
COUNCILLOR CHRISTINE
REID AND
MR RICHARD
BROWN
Q445 Chairman: We are joined for our
final session this afternoon by Councillor Christine Reid and
Richard Brown who is the Assistant Director of Hertfordshire County
Council. I notice you have been sitting at the back throughout
the discussion and there have been times when you have been nodding
vigorously and times when you have—dare I say—grimaced
a little bit. Let us start where we have started with other people.
We started with Haskins, we have been through the rural strategy,
we have got the Bill now, so can I say what do you make of the
show so far?
Cllr Reid: Before I start, can
I apologise that there is only one councillor here today because
people have been struck down by a virus so I am afraid you have
just got me from the LGA membership. Fundamentally we welcome
the publication of the Bill. Its provisions do not differ significantly
from the rural strategy but we do have some concerns.
Q446 Chairman: Right. Tell us about them.
Cllr Reid: Richard is going to
talk about the Integrated Agency and I am going to talk about
the CRC. In a way I would like to start by following up the last
point that you made to the Agency and picking up what you said
about rural proofing.
Q447 Mr Jack: Excuse me, just before
you start, I am intrigued that you sit there and say "I really
welcome this Bill" when in actual fact the role of local
authorities in delivering rural services has been sort of gloriously
airbrushed out of it.
Cllr Reid: We fought that battle
at the earlier stage and we did not get ourselves into the rural
strategy in quite the way that we would have liked. The question
is now not the formal structure of the Bill for local authorities,
it is how it is delivered. We will be working with the new agencies
and with Defra to try and ensure that we do have a role at a later
stage. At this precise moment it is the detail of the Bill which
we are concerned about if that is all right.
Q448 Chairman: Okay.
Cllr Reid: I think I would like
to pick up what you were saying earlier—both of you—about
rural proofing and that last point about RDAs. I am a member of
the South West RDA as well and I have got a lot of concerns about
how the RDAs are going to deliver these very small scale, very
local projects. I would like to see the Commission for Rural Communities
being able to rural proof the RDAs, formally rural proof, not
just Whitehall but the RDAs and also local government. There was
some work done with local government in the last couple of years.
We have always worked really well with the Countryside Agency
and we have produced a document about rural proofing and local
government and so on. It could have gone much further, it could
still go much further and we would like to see that happening.
I think one of the concerns that we have about this Bill is that
rural proofing is not embedded in it, in fact it is very thin.
The role of the watchdog, the role of the rural advocate is not
stated as firmly as we believe it should be. In fact, in our submission
we said we feel that there is too much of a focus on the areas
of social exclusion and that we have some fears it will end up
as a rural subset of a social exclusion unit. We have put in a
very small amendment and said the definition for rural needs could
be defined as especially but not exclusively the needs of those
suffering from social disadvantage. The Commission produced excellent
states of the countryside reports and reports on rural housing.
Rural housing is not just about the most socially excluded, it
is about a whole range of people in the countryside. The State
of the Countryside report covered all sorts of areas. A rather
significant report, The State of the Countryside 2020,
which was futures work, was looking at far wider issues than the
narrow social exclusion that they seem to be being corralled into
in their new role. We would be really sorry if they were not able
to be an overall rural watchdog.
Q449 Chairman: That was your first concern,
are there more?
Cllr Reid: Do you want us to go
on to the Integrated Agency?
Q450 Chairman: Yes. I would like to get
them all on the table.
Cllr Reid: All right. Richard,
you start with the Integrated Agency.
Mr Brown: As far as the Integrated
Agency is concerned, as Christine has said, we broadly welcome
the Bill as a whole. There are, however, a couple of points of
concern about the Agency, about its stated role and purpose but
in a way more deeply about its proposed or prospective way of
working. In terms of role and purpose, we note that there is nothing
on the face of the Bill about the Integrated Agency informing
and shaping government policy. We wonder just how it is going
to influence government and indeed others without such an explicit
role. We look, also, at the general purpose, the list of five
things. We get a sense the socio-economic activity is something
which will be turned to once the greater nature focused activity
has been taken care of. We think there is a little bit of a contradiction
there. If we are saying on the one hand that the Integrated Agency
is about working within a framework of sustainable development,
you cannot then have social and economic things as a bolt-on when
appropriate, it has got to be more deeply—to use that word
again—embedded. Those things aside it is going to be important
to local authorities that the Agency has a culture and an attitude
in line with much of what Lord Haskins said which gives us, for
example, schemes/projects/initiatives which go with the grain
of what is happening regionally, sub regionally and locally and
that the Agency is not looking in a kind of command and control
way for programmes which are meant to be shoehorned in in every
locality. For us, we wonder—I am not sure about the practicality
of this—in addition to the Agency having a duty to report
annually, whether there could not be some kind of pre statement
of intent developed, perhaps as part of the Confederation work,
which sets out for everybody clearly how the Integrated Agency
will align with the rest of the world, to some extent, rather
than how the rest of the world is going to be expected to align
with the Agency. That picks up on Lord Haskins' points about there
being a myriad of very effective networks out there already which
in a sense present food for new arrangements and should not be
ignored.
Q451 Chairman: There is an awful lot
there and we will not be able to pick it all up in the time we
have available. Richard, you reminded us of the Haskins Policy
delivery split and it links into the point that Christine was
making earlier on. I struggle a little bit to see how the Commission
is going to know what is going on on the ground, in the sense
it is not doing any derivative terms, it is not doing any real
work, it is intellectual. I think, Richard, you are saying the
Integrated Agency will be doing quite a lot of work, it will get
a lot of experience but how does that feed into policy now? What
are the solutions to this?
Mr Brown: First of all, to reiterate
the point about the Agency producing perhaps some kind of forward
planning statement of intent, that can show us not only the ways
in which it intends to work with other people but perhaps critically
the way it does connect with core Defra policy and indeed with
the policy and priorities of other Government departments as well.
I do not think we should assume that there are no connections,
for example with the ODPM and the whole Town and Country Planning
world, clearly there is a very important link there. I think for
starters it would be useful to have that kind of statement of
intent. Assuming that the Commission really is an advocate, a
proofer, a rural champion with teeth, then we assume by definition
that it is going to be doing a bit of rural proofing of outfits
like the Integrated Agency as well. There is another check and
balance that is available.
Q452 Chairman: It is interesting you
are advocating rural proofing of the RDAs because you have a healthy
scepticism of delivery there.
Cllr Reid: Yes. I think it will
be very variable delivery across the RDAs. EEDA are leading on
it and EEDA are very committed to it but it is not necessarily
so, as you pointed out, in some of the other RDAs and I think
that really will need to be watched. Local government can watch
it to an extent, and we will be doing, because we are very concerned
about the small scale projects but I think it needs more focused
rural proofing.
Q453 Mr Jack: You just mentioned about
local projects and in paragraph four of the evidence you kindly
sent us you talk about the track record of local authorities:
". . . an acknowledged track record in developing robust
and effective partnerships at the local level . . .". You
talk about: ". . . successfully integrating the work of relevant
stakeholders to deliver locally sensitive and accountable policies
and programmes, which can also help to reconnect `town and country'".
Then at paragraph 10 you develop the same theme. Here you talk
about: ". . . Consideration should be given to the Agency
being asked to produce an initial plan/statement describing how
it intends to create the integrated and coherent approach . .
. This would enable potential partners, including local authorities
and local strategic partnerships, to identify opportunities for
partnership/collaborative working early in the life of the new
Agency . . .". Now, one of the things I asked about earlier
was the list of players—local authorities, regional assemblies,
RDAs, the Integrated Agency, the Commission, the Environment Agency—there
seem to be so many players out there, all of whom have got their
own little agenda. You have got something though which is this
local involvement and the ability to spot local priorities. Do
you feel there is sufficient protection in the new arrangements
that you will effectively have to be listened to? What worries
me is that, for example, with the local partnerships, they will
develop some very good ideas but where you have not got the Countryside
Agency specifically focused on saying "Okay, do something
about that", you have now got to go and get in a queue at
the RDA and/or anybody else's door and say "Hello, I am here,
buy me". Are you worried about that?
Cllr Reid: Yes, we are.
Q454 Mr Jack: What would you like to
tell us that we ought to write about to get round that problem?
Cllr Reid: I think it is about
moving on from, as I said earlier, the detail of the Bill, how
it is going to be implemented to a sort of code of practice, if
you like, which comes before, probably, the Bill is delivered
because the full detail of the primary legislation is going to
take some time. We would very much like it to ensure that local
government is taken extremely seriously as one of the few partners
who can deliver some of these projects. Of course it is going
to be even more complex. I sort of despair of Haskins' desperate
need to simplify rural funding streams because something which
is not mentioned here, of course, is the funding stream that has
gone to the Government offices which is going to deliver a lot
of the social schemes through probably the rural community councils.
Pulling all this together, and ensuring that small communities
know where to get their money from, how to get their schemes delivered
is going to take almost the entire time of the new CRC if they
are really focusing on monitoring rural delivery, and whether
they are going to be able to do that or not is another matter.
Q455 Mr Jack: Mr Brown, you wanted to
contribute?
Mr Brown: Just to supplement that.
We must not be totally despairing in that flowing from Lord Haskins'
work and subsequent to the rural strategy have come some mechanisms
like Regional Rural Delivery Frameworks, like a reform of the
regional rural affairs fora, and of course local government having
further developed its work in things like local strategic partnerships.
This means we have in place some prospect of success, we have
some useful building blocks, however, I think looking at it from
the point of view of the average farmer, the average person in
the street, I do not know whether they would say, "Whoopee
for this Bill, it really is going to make a difference" which
is why—without labouring the point—our main concern
has to be "How will all this malarkey work in practice"
rather than what is on the face of the Bill.
Q456 Mr Jack: Could you just refresh
my memory? Regional Rural Delivery Frameworks, who writes them?
What is the organisational structure which produces one of these
documents because people keep referring to this as some elixir
to these practical problems?
Mr Brown: They are directed at
the centre by core Defra which instructed all Government offices
working in collaboration with as many people as possible to produce
an initial draft of these frameworks and, in fact, most Government
offices, I think, had to submit the drafts to Defra by Christmas.
The drafts—which were put together in a bit of a hurry with
a great effort made to involve as many people as possible in sorting
out some of the key principles—it is envisaged will be some
kind of framework/blueprint for priorities in economic, environmental
and social terms for the region with some kind of apportionment
of who does what, when and how it is going to be paid for.
Q457 Mr Jack: If Defra have got this
overview, which touches on the areas you have talked about, I
am now at a loss to understand quite how the Integrated Agency,
which also has thoughts of a spatial nature over environmental
issues, for argument's sake, fit into this framework? Is this
the source of co-ordination which I was seeking earlier or is
it that we are going to have so many people doing their own thing?
One of the issues which clearly affects much of the potential
for development in meeting the economic objectives of the Integrated
Agency and the Commission is matters related to planning. If we
focus for a moment on rural housing and alternative uses of development
potential on farms, these are very sensitive and very localised
issues but currently they are the subject of an ODPM overview,
they are the subject of regional assembly commentary, they are
the subject of RDA input, they are the province of decision-making
on a project by project basis of local authorities, and yet it
is an absolutely integral part of delivering rural economic development,
and to be done in a sensitive way which ticks all the environmental
boxes. How are we going to cut through or deal with these cross-cutting
issues which already have complex interrelationships and fit them
into this new structure so they work properly?
Cllr Reid: You have asked a very
good question, if I may say. All we can offer currently in local
government at the moment, which is I suppose what you want to
hear from, are the new rural pathfinders, one in each of the regions,
who are really trying to work out new and innovative ways of delivering
rural services, taking into account all this multiplicity of agencies
and structures that you have mentioned. The trouble is they are
going to take rather a long time to come to any significant conclusions
and in the meantime the rest of the country is not covered by
them so, yes, this is a matter of concern.
Mr Brown: If I can add, I agree
that life is not hugely less complex by virtue of this Bill, however,
this Bill is one strand, a lot of which is based upon the work
that Lord Haskins did but one strand of the Government's rural
strategy, it is also but one bit of the larger picture of life
out there. Local government are in a good position to help make
sense of this at the local and sub-regional level. Maybe things
will be a little bit improved by virtue of this Bill and certainly
we want to work very hard within the new structure to help make
it work but I do not think there are going to be magic answers.
The Regional Rural Delivery Frameworks in due course in theory
ought to become a very useful co-ordinating mechanism. The Integrated
Agency will be one of the players, and there will be a lot of
others as well. It is a positive step, I think.
Cllr Reid: It is a positive step
but the difficulty, again, as I return to, is rural delivery is
about really tiny villages and the region does not really matter
very much to the average parish council or to the average village
hall committee or even, in many cases, to the average district
council. There is the difficulty that there will be over-arching
strategies but they will not be penetrating down to the grass
roots level, to the delivery level.
Q458 Chairman: Who is going to make sure
this happens?
Cllr Reid: We will carry on doing
our best.
Q459 Chairman: Local authorities?
Cllr Reid: Local authorities,
but that was why I said right at the very beginning that we would
like to see rural proofing embedded in the Bill as far as CRC
is concerned right across the board from Whitehall to local authorities
through the RDAs. Also, if I could just mention one other point
that we have picked up, the statement of policy is full of really
very warm words, it is hard to disagree with much in the policy
statement. Under Section 7 of the CRC little bit of it, it says
"The intention is to ensure that the Commission takes account
of social, economic and environmental factors in formulating its
advice or performing its advocacy". When it comes to the
Bill it only mentions the social and economic, it does not mention
the third sustainable development pillar of environmental and
I think that will undermine what the CRC can do if it is not statutorily
responsible for commenting in its watchdog/advocate role on the
whole sustainable pillars.
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