Examination of Witnesses (Questions 680-683)
LORD WHITTY,
MR BILL
SCRIVEN AND
MR IAN
NEWTON
20 JULY 2004
Q680 Mr Jack: If you were pressed to
try and define a traffic light system that you could endorse,
what would its characteristics be?
Lord Whitty: The problem is that
traffic lights may apply to different things. You can have a traffic
light system in salt content or you can have a traffic light system
in fat content but it is difficult to have a traffic light system
which conveys everything that we would want people to understand
about a balanced diet. Therefore, if people are looking already
to limit their fat content or their salt content, then a traffic
light system could be very helpful but it is not going to say
how much of this bit of medium salty bread should I have as compared
with vegetables and as compared with roast beef a week. It is
difficult to convey that through a traffic light system.
Q681 Mr Jack: Can I just ask you about
assurance schemes; you put particular weight on that. Do you think
that they are a good way of communicating messages about the nature
of the way that food is produced bearing in mind that many of
the assurance schemes we have come across seem only to indicate
an adherence to minimum statutory standards and do not in any
way relate to the quality or other attributes of the food produced
but sometimes the logos that are used seem to convey lots of those
extra bits of information together with country of origin messages
and therefore the logos go beyond a simple point of reassurance?
Are you happy with that?
Lord Whitty: Certainly the red
tractor is intended to convey not only the way that the food is
produced and the compliance with minimum standards but also that
it has been produced from a farm which has been properly inspected
and which meets those standards and, by and large, that is a standard
which people are beginning to recognise. There are other series
of standards, for example leaf or freedom foods, which convey
other aspects of how food is produced and which probably have
a more limited segment of the consumers who relate to them. One
could argue that the organic label was similar but is one that
is subject to a higher level of standard if you like, so there
is not a single standard that is going to actually convey all
the information but the comprehensiveness for fresh food of a
clearer and recognisable standard for the basic level of quality
and quality production is important and that is where red tractor
is trying to go. The higher level standards are also, by and large,
not yet sufficiently recognised by a large enough section of consumers
to have achieved the ratcheting up, if you like, of quality standards,
but I believe that they will be there and that, with increased
consciousness, they will make a contribution. If you are asking
me if assurance schemes can convey a balanced diet, then the answer
is "no" anymore than a single dimensional traffic light
system can.
Q682 Joan Ruddock: I want to turn to
the WTO and the negotiations that the EU is having in relation
to Article 2.2 which we know is about not having barriers to trade.
The argument has been put that mandatory labelling in the context
of the WTO can be seen to be a barrier to trade. How successful
are we being within the EU in trying to persuade other countries
of our point of view which is that mandatory labelling is an important
aid in itself and should not be seen as an anti-competitive measure?
Lord Whitty: I think that, in
general, we are up against a difficulty. The EU has established
that they would wish to preserve their labelling system and indeed
enhance some, as is currently under discussion. In the WTO's negotiations,
the European Commission has actually tried to keep the concept
of mandatory labelling of foods in play for the negotiations.
It has to be said that almost all the other negotiating partners
are in some difficulty on this and do regard it certainly beyond
pure safety issues as being a form of hidden protection and that
the other partners to the WTO may well see that this is an EU
attempt to introduce further protection by the backdoor. The current
position is that it is part of the EU's negotiating mandate. There
are aspects of mandatory labelling which could lead us into protection
and therefore the UK within the EU is careful to try and ensure
that we do not get into that, but those negotiations still have
to take place. You will probably know that the latest development
is that there is a new framework which has been produced only
last Friday, the full implications of which I am not in a position
to tell you, but the idea is that that will go to the WTO over
the next few days for the WTO General Council on I think the 29th
of this month and that we would therefore have a framework for
further negotiations on the agriculture chapter of the WTO. Whether
that occurs before or after the American elections and various
other changes is not for me to decide but there are some developments
on what we are going to discuss in the WTO which will need updating
within the next fortnight.
Q683 Joan Ruddock: It does not sound
all that helpful. There has seemingly been a move and this is
of course again where we caught on the GM issue by the WTO arguing
very narrow Sanitary and Phytosanitary regulations rather than
the wider issues and there is a great concern amongst those who
have given us evidence that we could see ourselves going into
a position where we cannot give our consumers what they are demanding
particularly, for example, on ethical issues.
Lord Whitty: I think that is probably
true. If you make the labelling mandatory, then we do run the
risk of there being a WTO beyond the safety issue. The Codex Alimentarius
is recognised in the WTO structure, so the safety issues—and
those are increasing all the time—are protected but, if
you go beyond that, then there are potential WTO cases like the
GM one.
Chairman: Lord Whitty, thank you very
much. That brings us to the end of our questions this afternoon.
Your evidence has, once again, been most helpful and that now
concludes the meeting of the Committee this afternoon.
| 
