Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-31)
MR FRANCO
FRATTINI AND
MR STEFANO
BERTOZZI
4 APRIL 2005
Q20 John Robertson: Mr Vice President,
negotiations on the Racism and Xenophobia Framework Decision have
been resumed and, among other things, it seeks to establish an
EU-wide crime of "public denial or gross trivialisation"
of war crimes. Is this not a good example of a matter which should
be left to the different traditions within the member nations?
Mr Frattini: On racism and xenophobia
I think there is an important need to respond to this terrible
offence on our basis in terms of fundamental rights, that is racism,
anti-Semitism and xenophobia as well. The original proposal made
by the Commission a few years ago has been profoundly amended
and we are very close to reaching a possible compromise. It is
a compromise fully respecting the principle of subsidiarity. We
had a very fruitful discussion at the last Interior Ministers'
Council that took place for the first time in January, for the
second time in February, and finally the Presidency and the Commission
came to the conclusion that it is possible to come up with an
agreed solution, an agreed solution setting up common principles.
The first principle is that there is no space in Europe for racism
and xenophobia, but, in full respect of subsidiarity, leaving
it to the Member States to translate this principle according
to different traditions, different solutions and different histories.
We are very close. We left the new Member States a period of time
to examine the draft proposal and I am confident that there will
be unanimity in accepting this Framework Decision respecting subsidiarity.
Q21 John Robertson: Can I get clarification
of that. Is what you are saying that the Member States then will
have jurisdiction over the interpretation of what is in it?
Mr Frattini: Of course.
Q22 John Robertson: I have got to ask,
what is the point? If the Member States have the final say, or
even at the initial stage have their say, what is the point of
writing this out?
Mr Frattini: The point is that
we include some actions that are forbidden, that are banned in
every Member State, but each Member State translates penal rules,
including sanctions, according to national legislation and national
tradition. It is only the principle that is a common European
principle. In some Member States there are no rules at all regarding
punishment for racist activities and that is unacceptable in my
view. In other Member States, including my country, there are.
We do not need any change if this Framework Decision is approved
because in Italy there is already a full legislation, penal legislation,
regarding racism and xenophobia but, on the contrary, in other
Member States there is not and that is why it is extremely useful.
Q23 John Robertson: With the greatest
respect, if it is the case that some countries do not have, shall
we say, the legislation that we have in Britain or in Italy, you
are not going to impose what the words are within the document
and if you are not going to do that then what is the point? These
countries will still have their own jurisdiction on racism and
xenophobia, or the lack of any.
Mr Frattini: When there is a lack
of legislation, the Member State should provide new legislation.
Q24 John Robertson: But you are not going
to force European will upon them.
Mr Frattini: They should provide
new legislation.
Q25 John Robertson: But you are not going
to make them do that.
Mr Frattini: The Commission will
monitor the situation by providing a report about the implementation
of the Framework Decision, as usual.
Q26 Angus Robertson: Commissioner, I
do not think anybody has any objections to racism or xenophobia
being combated in the most effective way possible, and I think
in every single Member State there will be in one way or another
the ability of the legal system to combat racism or xenophobia.
The issue that was raised by my colleague opposite was about the
establishment of an EU-wide crime of "public denial or gross
trivialisation". As a jurist, you will know that this is
the same as in the German or Austrian legal systems, Wiederbetätigung,
national socialist agitation, saying that six million Jews did
not die during the Second World War. That is an offence, it is
a very serious offence, and we can understand why they take that
so seriously in their countries, but it is not a crime here to
say that. It is contemptible, it is wrong and it is to be condemned,
but it is not a crime. How does one reconcile saying that we are
going to respect the subsidiarity of different countries' legal
traditions by bringing in a European-wide crime? That is a contradiction,
with the greatest of respect. Either you tell countries, "You
are to have a new crime that does not exist here now" or
not. You cannot respect subsidiarity and at the same time say,
"You will do this".
Mr Frattini: I understand your
preoccupation. This proposal is extremely useful for some Member
States that do not yet have any domestic legislation about racism
or xenophobia.
Q27 Angus Robertson: Forgive me, I am
not asking about racism or xenophobia, I am asking about "public
denial or gross trivialisation". That is not racism, that
is not xenophobia, that is about the denial of national social
crimes, for example.
Mr Frattini: We are not considering
this particular situation in the Framework Decision. We are not
considering including this particular situation, we are guaranteeing
a certain degree of flexibility.
Q28 Mr Connarty: So the Commission has
dropped that proposal?
Mr Frattini: I do not have the
final draft in front of my eyes.
Mr Connarty: I have seen it.
Q29 Mr Heathcoat-Amory: I think we must
get to the bottom of this.
Mr Frattini: I will check this
point.
Q30 Mr Connarty: It is a very positive
announcement.
Mr Frattini: Yes, I will check
this point.
Q31 Chairman: We look forward to getting
that clarified, Mr Vice President. Can I thank you very much for
being here with us for the last hour or so. I can tell you we
have about the same amount of questions we have asked you so far
to ask you again. As they say in the cabaret, it is always good
to leave the audience wanting more. In that sense, it has been
very useful. I hope you found it informative and useful for yourself
because certainly we have. Thank you very much for affording us
this opportunity.
Mr Frattini: Thank you very much.
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