Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)
16 NOVEMBER 2004
MR DENIS
MACSHANE
MP AND MR
DOMINICK CHILCOTT
Q180 Chairman: And the answer?
Mr MacShane: Well, they said there
are difficulties. Both sides said there were difficulties. Nobody
ever excludes anything in Cyprus but there are difficulties.
Q181 Chairman: Do you fear that if both
sides say there are difficulties to any movement the division
of the island will become more entrenched with the danger of partition?
Mr MacShane: I do not see how
partition is possible simply because there are UN Security Council
resolutions, there is a treaty of guarantee, and the whole of
the island of Cyprus has entered the EU even if the acquis is
suspended in the north. I do not see how Turkey can join the EU
on the basis of a partitioned island.
Q182 Chairman: Understandably in the
current context you have been hesitant, but is that hesitation
based on a reluctance to rock the boat before December 17 and
the decision on Turkey's candidate status?
Mr MacShane: No, it genuinely
is not. I think if this hearing was taking place on December 18
or January 18 I would be saying much the same. I am conscious
that almost anything a British minister says is echoed very loudly
back in the island on both sides of the Green Line so I am cautious
in a responsible way in what I say. I think there are opportunities
now once Turkey starts EU membership negotiations, but I really
do think it needs a change of attitude on all sides and I do fear,
yes, that positions are very deeply entrenched. Each side is absolutely
convinced it has 90% of right on its side and if only the others
would see its point of view everything would be solved, and the
plain fact is that you have in Annan the political outline, Annan
One-Five of the future for Cyprus in the EU, the future of Cyprus,
a successful democracy of two communities in the eastern Mediterranean,
and my fervent wish and that of the Government is that there was
sufficient statesmanship to seize that.
Q183 Chairman: The Americans took a unilateral
decision earlier this month in relation to the naming of the Republic
of Macedonia. Do you feel that there would be a unilateral decision
by the US in respect of flights to the north?
Mr MacShane: We discussed that
earlier, as was explained—
Q184 Chairman: But of its special relationship,
what is your understanding?
Mr MacShane: As the Committee
was informed earlier, the Americans have got the right to land
in Turkey, come on to Ercan and then fly straight back to the
United States, so would airlines in the United Kingdom. I am not
sure if they can fly straight back to the United Kingdom or whether
they have to touch down again in Turkey?
Mr Chilcott: We have a different
legal interpretation than the Americans on how this can be done.
Mr MacShane: I would not forget
that the Greek Cypriot diaspora in the United States is very influential—
Q185 Chairman: What is the "different
legal interpretation" which allows the US to believe they
have the right to land directly in the way you have suggested,
and which prevents us?
Mr Chilcott: US national legislation
governing rules about international flights will allow them to
use their bilateral air services agreement with Turkey to enable
an airport in the north of Cyprus to be the last port of call
between flights scheduled to go from Turkey to the US provided
that airport met the minimum safety standards that the United
States sets. Now, clearly that interpretation of their bilateral
agreement for them overrides, or is compatible, with their implementation
of the Chicago Convention. The way the Chicago Convention is implemented
under British law rather constrains our ability to authorise flights
to or from directly an airport that has not been designated as
an international airport by the government of the territory for
which it is responsible.
Q186 Chairman: Given that US interpretation,
have we any reason to believe that they might in the near future
act unilaterally?
Mr MacShane: I do not know. It
is a simple answer. We are obviously in talks with Washington
on this; I have not seen any paper that suggests this is likely
to be initiated: I am not sure what direct flights will be commercially
viable between all the way from the United States and Northern
Cyprus or whether they are a realistic proposition, but I can
assure you that this is all a debate in the semi public arena
and if Washington takes the decisions so be it. I certainly would
not protest if there are direct commercial flights with Northern
Cyprus, providing it does not involve any recognition of the `Turkish
Republic of Northern Cyprus'.
Q187 Mr Maples: The original phrase was
I think there was a different "interpretation" of the
law. What I understand Mr Chilcott to be saying was that the United
States would regard their domestic law as in this respect overriding
the provisions of the Chicago Treaty, whereas we are stuck with
the Chicago Treaty on its own, so it is not a different interpretation
of the Chicago Treaty; it is that American domestic law is different
from ours in this respect. Is that correct?
Mr Chilcott: I think it is to
do with the implementation of the legislation they have in the
United States that gives effect to the Chicago Convention and
governs international flights, and they way they have implemented
the Convention is different from the way we have implemented it.
On the question of whether it gives them more leeway, you would
have a get a lawyer's view of their national legislation but the
view they take is that it does give them this leeway.
Q188 Mr Maples: But the thing that gives
them the extra leeway is the domestic legislation with which they
implemented the Chicago Treaty, so in that respect their law on
this is different from ours?
Mr Chilcott: Yes.
Mr MacShane: If it is of help
to the Committee I will ask the aviation legal experts that we
have and in the DTI to let you have a note because I think it
would be helpful for all of us[3]
Mr Maples: And how EU law fits into that
or whether it has any relevance at all. That would be very helpful.
Q189 Mr Hamilton: When we were in Cyprus
we obviously met a great number of interesting people, as you
will have done when you were there just a few days before us,
and one of the people we met was former President George Vassiliou—indeed,
he was one of our first interlocutors on the day we arrived. What
I found very interesting though about our questioning of former
President Vassiliou who, even though he was President quite a
long time ago is not such an old man today, was that he claimed
that under different leadership the Greek Cypriot community in
Cyprus would have voted for the Annan Plan, for Annan Five. Do
you believe him?
Mr MacShane: You are asking me
to be a Greek Cypriot or a cephalogical expert in Greek Cypriot
voting patterns. I genuinely do not know. I have to say, though,
that the 85% vote is quite a strong statement—
Q190 Mr Hamilton: I think it was 76%.
Mr MacShane: Sorry, forgive me,
a three quarters vote in a particular direction, the idea that
different political positions and expressions of leadership might
have changed that dramatically—I do not know. I wish obviously
that everybody campaigned enthusiastically for the Annan Five
Plan but that was not the case.
Q191 Mr Hamilton: It was interesting
that the political party AKEL, which is quite influential in Cyprus,
decided ultimately to recommend a "no" vote and a lot
of people told us that more influential than President Papadopoulos
or any other individual would have been the decision by AKEL to
vote in favour of the Annan Plan. Have you any comment on that?
Mr MacShane: Not really. I read
the report in telegrams on the debate inside AKEL which, as you
rightly say, is a very powerful political force representing a
great number of Cypriots and discharges its political responsibilities
in a very serious, responsible and mature way and there were people
listening perhaps to the tom-toms in the undergrowth and no political
party necessarily wants to be on the wrong side of a referendum
vote.
Q192 Mr Hamilton: I think what you are
saying seems to be that there was an underlying wish amongst Greek
Cypriots to vote against Annan Five and that the leadership of
the political parties and of the country pushed it further in
that direction, rather than the opposite?
Mr MacShane: I genuinely do not
know. You are asking me to be a Greek Cypriot voter or a Greek
Cypriot political scientist. I am not. I would wish consistently
that certainly, as Europe has changed in the last few years and
as Turkey has, we could have had over the last few years language
saying yes to a settlement, yes to a Europe, yes to both communities
joining, but as you know it is quite common in politics, people
get very excited by the idea of saying no to Europe, no to partnership,
no to being fully part of the European Union. It is an infectious
disease that is not contained simply in Cyprus.
Q193 Mr Hamilton: Just to conclude, not
particularly for answer but just to comment, that we heard from
a Turkish Cypriot leader who I think is a member of Mr Talat's
party and who was very dismissive of the continuation of the presence
of Turkish troops. He said we would be a lot better off, if I
am interpreting him correctly, without Turkish troops on Cypriot
soil. I thought that was very encouraging. You do not have to
comment.
Mr MacShane: I cannot find in
my heart massively to disagree with all of what he said.
Q194 Mr Pope: Is not this the key to
it, following on from that? You said at the beginning that if
you were an adviser to Kofi Annan you would say, "Walk away
from this, no point sending another special envoy, no point having
another referendum, no point having further negotiations",
and surely it is worthwhile having another go at this because
maybe the gap is not so great. One of the things that seemed to
us when we visited to be a big concern of the Greek Cypriot community
was Turkish troops on the island. Now, the Annan Plan says that
over a period of I think 19 years there will be a phased withdrawal.
Well, that is a great deal of time. Why can we not go back and
suggest to Turkey that a faster withdrawal of Turkish troops would
be a really good idea? You said yourself that a division seen
going back to mainland Turkey would send the right signal. Why
can we not make a suggestion that a more rapid withdrawal of Turkish
troops would be a good idea? It could be replaced perhaps by an
EU or a NATO force if people felt they needed that for security.
You could then talk around the edges—I certainly do not
think that the Annan Plan should be ripped up and we could start
again—just around the edges about settlers, right of return,
not greatly altering the Annan Plan but round the edges, and with
some goodwill it may just be worthwhile putting this back to another
referendum in 2005. Is that not worth a go?
Mr MacShane: If there was the
slightest evidence from either side that some alteration in Annan
Five would do the trick I would agree with you, Mr Pope, but I
just have to report honestly to the Committee—it is not
simply my visit to Cyprus, it is regular contacts with both sides—that
I do detect any willingness to get close to reversing the April
decision in the immediate future. Under the Annan Plan by the
year 2011, that is barely one British Parliament away, there would
be just be 3,000 Turkish troops left, a tenth of the existing
number. Seven years later, again compared with the thirty years
since 1974, or 44 years since 1960, that will be down to 650,
so I am not really sure what could be on offer that would improve
what was indicated in the plan.
Q195 Mr Pope: But is not Mr Maples right
in this: that the alternative to that, which is essentially to
do nothing, that yes, we have the EU summit coming up on 17 December
and we can talk about an accession date for Turkey, but in terms
of Cyprus just doing nothing is a recipe for a de facto
partition of the island?
Mr MacShane: We are not doing
nothing. We are visiting; EU officials are visiting; there are
constant talks around this in the EU Council; Cyprus is getting
more collective EU attention from the 24 than perhaps it has ever
done in the past. The House of Commons is well seized of it, your
Committee is evidence to that, so there is a lot of nudging and
pushing but I still respectfully have to say that the people who
need to move are the two sides on the island and there is not
a lot of evidence at the moment that they are moving out of their
position of saying "We are right and the other side is wrong".
Q196 Mr Pope: Could I respectfully suggest
that there is not anywhere near enough nudging and pushing going
on? You have already said that it is not really a matter for the
EU any more than resolving Northern Ireland or Gibraltar is a
matter for the European Union. These are rightly jobs for the
United Nations but the United Nations is showing precious little
interest in reviving a modified version of the Annan Plan, nor
is the United Kingdom government, and, frankly, what pressure
is there being brought to bear on the government of Cyprus? At
the moment they have everything they want. They are in the European
Union. They can veto trade with Northern Cyprus. They can veto
aid to Northern Cyprus and they are not under any pressure from
anybody?
Mr MacShane: On the contrary the
government of Cyprus feels under immense pressure because Turkey
is vetoing the government of Cyprus joining international organisations
where Turkey has veto rights, so the government of Cyprus feels
it is not getting fair treatment from Turkey in terms of international
treaty organisations it would like to join. It does not have normal
trade; ships with wonderful goods to sell cannot land in their
immediate market, so everybody is under pressure. Believe me,
and I confess perhaps a failure as a Europe minister, I have not
been able to come up with the mechanism that can take this forward
at this point in time. All I can tell the Committee is that the
British government takes it very seriously. We feel that we have
a mandate from the European Council meeting at the end of April
to improve the lot of the people of Northern Cyprus who are EU
citizens. We think that is a duty that should be discharged and
that, if you like, is where we are putting on a lot of pressure
and doing more than nudging, as I tried to report to the Committee,
and that is the important way forward. We have made clear to all
concerned "Here is Annan, come back to it. If you can find
partial proposals on the way forward, good, we will welcome then".
Q197 Mr Pope: I am grateful for you saying
that people who live in Northern Cyprus are citizens of the EU.
I think that is an important point to make, and we have some responsibility
there—
Mr MacShane: May I just make a
point through the Committee? I remember when I lived and worked
in Switzerland that as the European Union gradually surrounded
Switzerland on all sides—Italy, Austria, Germany, France—suddenly
Swiss citizens desperately proud of their Swiss passports and
Swiss nationality, found that they had grandparents or great uncles
who were Frenchmen or Italians and applied for French passports
so they could go and buy property, work, live, travel, without
having to go through all the visa and passport controls they had
to because they were without the EU. I certainly think that every
Turkish Cypriot should go tomorrow and get a Republic of Cyprus
passport even if they feel that is something being issued by a
Greek Cypriot government. It belongs to them as European Union
citizens which they then can use to travel freely to trade, to
work inside the whole of the European Union, and they can carry
whatever other papers they want like the Swiss carries a Swiss
passport and a French passport to go about his business, but there
are many more what you might call individual citizen's actions
that could be taken, as we saw last year with the marvellous demonstrations
going across the border, and perhaps it is a bit more of that
and a bit less of the hope that it is the super top down diplomacy
that would solve the problem that we need to encourage.
Q198 Mr Pope: I certainly agree with
most of that but I think there is possibly a case for one more
heave with what you refer to as "top down diplomacy".
There were plenty of rumours a few weeks ago that Kofi Annan was
considering appointing another special envoy to see if there was
some small alteration to the Annan Plan, and there were even names
mentioned as to who that may be. Could I urge the Minister, after
we have gone through the next EU Summit in the new year, to at
least explore that with the United Nations?
Mr MacShane: I can give you that
assurance.
Q199 Sir John Stanley: Just following
on from the comment you made a few moments ago, can you identify
for us the international organisations that the Republic of Cyprus
wishes to join where entry is by unanimity and where the government
of Turkey has exercised its vetoes?
Mr MacShane: One that has much
exercised them recently is the Turkish veto on them joining the
Missile Technology Control Regime which the government of the
Republic of Cyprus wanted to join and Turkey vetoed. I can provide
a list of other organisations.
Chairman: Would you please provide a
list to the Committee? I think that is the best way to forward
on that, Minister[4]
3 Please refer to the supplementary memorandum submitted
by the FCO, Ev 58, Ev 60. Back
4
Please refer to the supplementary memorandum submitted by the
FCO, Ev 59. Back
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