Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
SIR MICHAEL
JAY KCMG, MR
DAVID WARREN
AND SIR
MICHAEL WOOD
KCMG
25 JANUARY 2005
Q20 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Q21 Mr Olner: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Q22 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Q23 Chairman: Do any of your colleagues
know?
Sir Michael Jay: As I say, we
have certain information on the activities which took place, we
do not have complete information.
Q24 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Jay: Not as far as
I know, but our information on this would be reported to us by
the Ambassador. I am not aware that was an issue which was raised
by the Ambassador in his reports to us and it is not therefore
something which we would know.
Q25 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Sir Michael Wood: ***
Q26 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Wood: Well, what is
in the course of employment is quite broad these days.
Chairman: I think that covers the ground
I wanted. I will open it up to colleagues.
Q27 Andrew Mackinlay: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Q28 Andrew Mackinlay: ***
Sir Michael Jay: What I would
like to say, and this raises a general question and it is one
which, to be honest, has worried me for sometime, I think it is
possible because there is, of course, the duty of confidentiality
which applies to all *** issues here. *** There is quite a difficult
issue here. Perhaps I can ask David Warren to say a little more
about it, but I have to say I have myself been in a position as
an Ambassador when I was told that I could not, for reasons of
medical confidentiality, know information which I believed it
would have been useful to know about someone who had been posted
under my care. That is because there is at times some conflict
and tension here which we have to try to reconcile. Do you want
to add anything to that, David?
Mr Warren: It is very important
to us, when anybody is posted abroad, that there is full consultation
between the different wings of the administration on their suitability
for the post in question in terms of their skills and experience;
any health or welfare issues which should be taken into account
in deciding whether or not to send them to a specific posting;
and any security related issues. Each part of the administration
will, for reasons of confidentiality—the security and welfare
sections—operate independently but we aim for them to consult
each other so any potential issues which may cause problems of
the sort Sir Michael has described will be picked up before the
person is posted to a posting where they may be unusually vulnerable
or where difficulties may emerge. That is important. Sir Michael
invited me to comment on Mr Mackinlay's first question. I am aware
of different allegations which have been made relating to ***
the case under discussion. These allegations, some of which conflict,
have never been tested in a full disciplinary process because
*** So from the Foreign Office's perspective, although we are
aware of allegations, no facts have ever been fully established.
Q29 Andrew Mackinlay: ***
Mr Warren: ***
Q30 Andrew Mackinlay: ***
Mr Warren: ***
Q31 Andrew Mackinlay: Mine is a very
narrow question and I am sorry to labour this but you have, perhaps
unintentionally, fudged it. *** If you give the example of Sir
Michael, the thing he had at the back of his mind in his diplomatic
career, at least he was privy to the fact that there was something
he had to ask about, even though it was declined.
Mr Warren: *** That is what we
understand to be the case. I do repeat the general point of principle
which Sir Michael made at the very beginning, which is that because
disciplinary procedures were not completed, these facts have not
been established in the sense we would like them all to be established
beyond any peradventure.
Q32 Andrew Mackinlay: Certainly that
is something you can share with us—the timescale. ***
Mr Warren: ***
Q33 Andrew Mackinlay: You will write
to us on that?
Sir Michael Jay: Let us consider
whether we should write to you or not.
Q34 Andrew Mackinlay: Can you tell the
Clerk?
Sir Michael Jay: I am reluctant
about getting into the details of issues, both because of our
duty of care to our staff and also because there are a number
of issues here on which the facts will never be established.
Andrew Mackinlay: I am not going into
the facts. I am asking for the chronological order and the issue
of whether or not there was advice. I have not pressed you—I
have been rather gentle with you—about what was the great
hidden thing in the safe, as it were. I think you have to meet
me half-way.
Q35 Chairman: Shall we just establish
what we are going to have? We are going to have a letter, in response
to Mr Mackinlay's question, setting out the chronology, and you
can indicate to us whether or not ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Mr Mackay: ***
Q36 Chairman: ***
Sir Michael Jay: ***
Q37 Andrew Mackinlay: *** I am slightly
changing gear here. I have put down some Parliamentary Questions
and it is said that people are employed, rightly, on the basis
of the employment law of the country concerned, but surely we,
as a Government, apply rules of natural justice? ***
Mr Warren: I am not aware of the
detail of the specific cases. *** but, I repeat, there are allegations
and counter-allegations which have never been put to general proof,
therefore I feel uneasy about appearing to assume a sequence of
events was proved even though there will have been allegations
made when the procedures were completed.
Q38 Andrew Mackinlay: It does occur to
me, Sir Michael, and I put it to you, *** to use your best endeavours
to get to the bottom of the issue. The impression I have this
afternoon is, one, it was not flagged up by your subordinates
until quite late in the day and, two, you personally have not
pursued with vigour, one, *** and two, what were all the circumstances;
they just do not seem to have been explored. We were also told
the Foreign Secretary was not told. I would like to know when
he eventually became aware of it, was it the day we raised it
with you? It seems to me you have abdicated it, and I do not mean
this offensively, you have wished it away, you have not done your
duty which an employer, whether he runs a shop, a supermarket
or the Foreign Office, has. You have a duty to get to the bottom
of it, both to avoid it again and *** All these things you have
not explored.
Sir Michael Jay: On the question
of the Foreign Secretary, I would need to check exactly when the
Foreign Secretary was first told about this. I would think it
was probably—no, I do not know.
Q39 Andrew Mackinlay: You do not know.
You do not know anything.
Sir Michael Jay: *** but Sir Michael
might want to say a bit more about that.
Sir Michael Wood: I can say quite
a lot about that, but that might break up the thread. Essentially,
I agree with Sir Michael, ***
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