Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
SIR MICHAEL
JAY KCMG, MR
DAVID WARREN
AND SIR
MICHAEL WOOD
KCMG
25 JANUARY 2005
Q60 Mr Illsley: ***
Mr Warren: Chairman, I do not
think I can answer in any more detail about the disciplinary investigation
of ***
Q61 Mr Illsley: ***
Mr Warren: May I say, it was not
the Foreign Office's desire in any disciplinary case that procedures
should be interrupted and unable to be brought to completion.
Q62 Chairman: That is not Mr Illsley's
question. He is asking, were the disciplinary proceedings against
***
Mr Warren: I do not believe that
is correct. The disciplinary proceedings against every individual
member of the Diplomatic Service who faces disciplinary charges
must be heard on their merits and considered and a proper judgment
reached on whether or not the official has committed this conduct.
That happened in this case, that happens in every case where disciplinary
proceedings are taken to conclusion.
Q63 Mr Illsley: We are not getting anywhere.
***
Mr Warren: As Sir Michael has
indicated, when a posting is arranged, checks on the official's
previous performance, previous conduct in the context of security
or welfare issues, should indeed have been made and a correct
judgment reached on whether an individual was suitable for a particular
posting. I have no reason to believe those checks did not take
place in the case that is under discussion, as they should in
every case, which is not to indicate, as Sir Michael has said,
that risks have always been effectively managed as they should
have been.
Q64 Chairman: I do not think we have
had an answer. Were there similar allegations made against ***
Mr Warren: I am not aware of similar
allegations to the ones which have been under discussion around
the Committee this afternoon having been made in previous posts.
I am not aware of that.
Q65 Mr Illsley: Looking forward, has
any action been taken in posts around the world to see whether
this is going on anywhere else? *** locally-engaged staff did
not report these allegations because they felt they were simply
not going to be believed, which tends to suggest there could have
been a culture in the past of an attitude towards the locally-engaged
staff, an attitude towards members of the civilian public, of
an "us and them" situation, where the post simply did
not have any regard for the locals. That is very worrying. Usually
when this Committee goes abroad, we find a good relationship between
locally-engaged staff and London-engaged staff and the post itself.
It is really disappointing to find that attitude occurred, if
it did occur, ***.
Sir Michael Jay: *** I have to
agree with you on that, Mr Illsley.
Q66 Ms Stuart: A generic point: does
resignation automatically bring disciplinary proceedings to an
end?
Sir Michael Jay: Yes.
Q67 Ms Stuart: I remember taking legislation
through which put an end to that within the NHS. Resignation from
the NHS no longer brings disciplinary proceedings to an end. Have
you considered anything along those lines?
Mr Warren: We have not considered
anything along those lines. Our disciplinary procedures in this
instance, relating to possible criminal activity, follow ACAS
best practice guidance as indicated in Sir Michael's letter to
the Chairman. We have not considered adjusting or amending our
procedures. We do expect line managers to manage robustly within
our procedures, we guide them to do so, so cases of the sort Mr
Illsley referred to do not occur and that they are managed robustly
where, regrettably, rarely they do occur.
Q68 Ms Stuart: Would you not agree the
current situation is rather unsatisfactory, because we end up
with answers not being provided because, due to a resignation,
proceedings have come to an end?
Mr Warren: I would say it is unsatisfactory
allegations lie on the file which are challenged and the facts
remain in dispute because it has not been possible to conclude
a disciplinary process.
Q69 Ms Stuart: Are there any circumstances
where, because of disciplinary proceedings, a person's pension
entitlement for example could be reduced?
Mr Warren: I would need to advise
the Committee in writing on that.
Sir Michael Jay: We could write
to the Committee in more detail about the disciplinary procedures
and about the various sanctions which would apply to different
proceedings, if that would help.
Q70 Ms Stuart: What I am trying to get
to is that resignation may be a very easy way out from an unpleasant
situation, and if that is the situation then I would urge you
to consider what the NHS did.
Sir Michael Jay: As David Warren
said, our procedures are consciously in line with ACAS best practice,
but I would like to look, if I may, at the arrangements of the
NHS to see whether there are lessons we could learn from that
in order to prevent the circumstances which you have just read
out.
Mr Pope: I have a very brief question
but it is on a slightly different tack about ***. Would that be
in order?
Chairman: Yes.
Mr Pope: ***
Chairman: Forgive me. We are here specifically
on the personnel point.
Mr Pope: I will let it rest.
Q71 Mr Chidgey: I have a couple of questions
about management aspects of the staff of our posts overseas and
the introduction or initiation of disciplinary procedures. I presume
for ***, and some other posts around the world, there is not exactly
a queue of volunteers wishing to go out there and spend a couple
of years of their life there?
Sir Michael Jay: It varies. We
are extremely fortunate in having a number of people who like
serving in difficult and sometimes dangerous places at certain
times in their careers, and do so with great distinction.
Q72 Mr Chidgey: In that case, if they
are the particular type of person who would like to do that sort
of thing, do you pay any particular attention to their other abilities,
such as management of staff, knowledge of the duty of care which
you have explained to us, and so on and so forth? In my experience,
like Bill, in the real world, usually the people who go to these
difficult places are those who are very single-minded individuals,
who tend to be typically loners rather than team players in understanding
their wider responsibilities.
Mr Warren: Perhaps I could answer
that in two parts, Mr Chidgey. Firstly, we attach enormous importance
to an officer's management ability, meaning his or her line management
ability and ability to manage staff and run a team successfully,
in appointing people to all posts but especially Heads of Mission
where there are serious management responsibilities. You are right,
if I may, to address the problem which sometimes has arisen in
the past, where volunteers have put themselves forward for very
difficult posts, often on promotion because it represents a promotion
opportunity, and prove in those posts that they do not have the
management or business skills to discharge their responsibilities
effectively. That is why within the Foreign Office we have introduced
a rigorous assessment and development centre competition at most
levels to assess people's suitability for promotion so we do not
get a situation where we have willing volunteers who are proved
to be less than capable.
Q73 Mr Chidgey: Do you have any sliding
scale of incentives, financial or otherwise, which you can give
people who do volunteer for these difficult posts, or do you just
rely on the pool which comes forward naturally?
Sir Michael Jay: There are different
compensations which apply to different sorts of postings. A posting
which is particularly difficult or dangerous will have an extra
hardship allowance eligible and also the length of tour will be
shorter than for another post. So there is recognition of the
difficulty or danger of the post.
Q74 Mr Chidgey: We are all very familiar,
as we are all employers around this table, funnily enough, with
the measures one has to go through in order to discipline staff
who do not come up to the standard or if their behaviour is in
some way detrimental. It starts off with a system of verbal and
then written warnings, and you are familiar with all this. How
much power does the Ambassador or Head of Mission have in instigating
those sort of procedures which could eventually lead to a dismissal
of a member of staff, or is it done through London?
Sir Michael Jay: No. In the first
instance, responsibility would lie with the line manager and it
would be for the line manager if there were difficulties to report
a difficult case to the Head of Mission. The Head of Mission would
then consult London about how it should be handled and there would
be a joint agreement about how a case would be handled.
Q75 Mr Chidgey: Could you tell us what
happened in this case in terms of those procedures?
Sir Michael Jay: What I would
like to say about this case is that I believe, with hindsight,
it could have been better handled in London and in post.
Q76 Mr Chidgey: You talked earlier about
indictable offences and you gave us a view, I think it would be
fair to say, on whether or not it would be impossible to prosecute
*** in England given the circumstances. May I ask, did any consultation
take place with the police authorities, with the CPS? Did you
have any guidance? Are these not the people to make those decisions—the
Crown Prosecution Service? It is not for the Foreign Office surely?
Sir Michael Wood: You are absolutely
right, of course. The prosecutorial decisions are for the prosecuting
authorities, the police and CPS.
Q77 Mr Chidgey: Were they consulted?
Sir Michael Wood: I am not aware
they were consulted in this case. I do not believe they were.
Q78 Mr Chidgey: Can we have clarification
of that, Sir Michael, whether they were or were not consulted
when a decision was made not to pursue this?
Sir Michael Jay: I do not believe
they were consulted.
Q79 Mr Chidgey: That is a definite statement?
Sir Michael Jay: That is a definite
statement.
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