Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)
14 DECEMBER 2004
MR CHRISTOPHER
JONES, CANON
GUY WILKINSON,
DR DON
HORROCKS, REV
KATEI KIRBY,
MR RICHARD
ZIPFEL AND
FATHER PHILIP
SUMNER
Q180 Chairman: You say that is something
that is present in the community of which you are a part?
Father Sumner: He is reporting
that to me. That is a real fear for himself and for other members
of his community. Certainly I know as well from the figures of
stop and search that have taken place, the massive rise in stop
and search, and yet the low number of people who have either been
arrested as a result of those searches or eventually convicted.
This proportion has affected the black communities and now also
the Muslim community so badly over the years.
Dr Horrocks: I could agree with
that and make a more general comment. I want to be careful not
to make stereotypical comments in this particular area. One could
understand in the context of good practice the police would look
at particular groups, if they perceive there to be a threat, as
being of more likelihood of being suspects. Our point would be
more general in this regard, the whole point about the police
tending to be more reactive rather than proactive in communities.
In other words, one could see the response to 9/11 as featuring
in that context, being reactive to something happening, like incidents
of crime, then the police appear in the community and carrying
out stop and search, similarly, with 9/11, suddenly the police
are looking particularly at communities. We have been stressing
more the need for community safety and for police to take a proactive
role in communities whether there is a threat or not.
Chairman: Thank you very
much indeed. That is very helpful.
Q181 Mr Singh: This is a question for
all witnesses. Do you think that communities are working together
enough? Should they be doing more? In terms of interfaith dialogue,
do we need more of that and is there enough going on or is there
too little interfaith dialogue going on?
Rev Kirby: My initial response
would be that I think there is a role and a place for it in terms
of us understanding the different people who make up our society
and being able to respect and understand each other. In terms
of enabling understanding of communities, I think it is absolutely
important. My experience of it is that it is fragmented and only
happens in areas where there is a strong faith presence and it
is driven by the faith communities, and that is not necessarily
a bad thing. This does happen across the country, so you see areas
of good practice where there is interfaith dialogue, and real
working together, and others where it is quite separate and quite
fragmented. In terms of working together enough, no, I do not
think so; does it have a role, absolutely.
Q182 Mr Singh: Dr Horrocks, would you
echo that?
Dr Horrocks: Yes. I have got a
slightly different angle. There are two questions there really.
Are we working together enough? I think the churches are working
very actively with minority communities. A very good example is
the Peace Alliance in Haringey, which I would commend as a model
for the promotion of peace community and anti-crime activity as
well, youth crime, gun crime, that kind of area, they are a model
for community working together. This is really very helpful indeed.
I think, though, there are two kinds of interfaith activities;
one is interfaith dialogue and another which the Government seems
to like is multifaith activity, and I differentiate between the
two. Interfaith dialogue perhaps is more where local communities
themselves, by their own initiative, explore one another's understanding
in an atmosphere of respect and tolerance whereas multifaith activity
tends to be for a specific purpose, to make representations to
the Government or, indeed, in response to 9/11. I think that happened
in the Central Hall immediately after 9/11. Do I think there is
enough? I think what there is is good and to be welcomed. I think
enough is being done and I would suggest rather than looking to
create new initiatives the Government could do more to support
the ones which do exist already and build them up. One or two
other things which are worth mentioning that we have heard are
representations from other groups than Muslims, notably Hindus
and Sikhs who because of the prevalence for dialogue with Muslims
particularly feel themselves to be being sidelined to some extent
and that if there are any new initiatives it should involve them
rather than opening doors necessarily solely for Muslims. Another
comment worth making is we do not seem to hear terribly much about
inter-Islam dialogue, exploration of Muslim with Muslim, radical
with moderate, trying to get dialogue within Islam itself together
within the British context which would seem to make a lot of sense
also.
Mr Zipfel: We are aware of quite
a lot going on and the people we spoke to specifically for this,
in most places there were things going on, in some cases initiated
within the last year or two; I think Father Philip can speak about
that. We were interested especially in the success of broad-based
community organising in London and especially East London which
brings together not just those who enter professionally into dialogue
often, but numbers of people, young and old, middle-aged and ordinary
practitioners in their faith, which is just to work together,
not to enter into a sophisticated religious dialogue necessarily
and in some ways that seems to work very well.
Father Sumner: My first point
would be I think it is always important that any sort of interfaith
dialogue which takes place on a town basis should be strategic
rather than it being bitty: like minded people getting together
to do little bits of things here and there. In my context, in
Oldham, it has become strategic, so you can begin to look at a
whole town together, at the issues, and be seen to be living a
cohesive model for other people in the town. Within education,
in our area we have worked with local authorities looking at the
non-European perspective in education, taking every curriculum
subject area and getting the subject area consultants to see how
they can help the teachers of the subject areas to deliver their
curriculum area from a non-European perspective, to nurture a
sense of pride in the identity of a Muslim or a Sikh through delivery
of maths or whatever. For example, the book by George Joseph,
The Crest of a Peacock, talks about how you can deliver
mathematics from a non-European perspective and other things like
that, but to have the enthusiasm of the local area curriculum
consultants. That enthusiasm passes on then to the teachers of
the various curriculum areas and very quickly begins to get across
the whole school area. We have just begun to do that in Oldham
and I can see the importance of it. In other places like Leicester
that is happening much better with their Young, Gifted and
Equal document for monitoring and evaluating that sort of
thing anyway and that needs, in my mind, to be rolled out much
more. In terms of the celebration of festivals, a simple example,
we have just had a Diwali, Hanukkah, Eid-ul-Fitr and Christmas
celebration, "Festival of Light". We took over a hotel
for the day, brought 350 people in from the local area to celebrate,
having speakers from the various religious communities to say:
"What are the similarities? What is this festival of light?
What does light mean to you and your faith? What are the differences?"
We had entertainment, dance, song together and then a meal together.
Taking each of them, for example Eid-ul-Adha, the notion of sacrifice
and pilgrimage, and developing that from different religious perspectives,
also having entertainment and a meal. It is a simple thing but
it enables us to celebrate the different festivals in an interfaith
way across the town and brings people together. In terms of Ramadan,
recently we put a request out to the Christian communities in
Oldham: "Why not celebrate one day of fast with the Muslim
community as an act of solidarity to find out what it is like
for a little while at least for the Muslim community" and
then to have iftar with the Muslim community in a local mosque
that night. One of the local Catholic secondary schools in Oldham,
the whole student council—two of them are here today from
that school but not from the student council—decided that
they were going to fast on behalf of the school to show solidarity
with the Muslim community in Oldham. I was so proud of them that
day that that sort of thing was happening. We have question time
as we go around different community centres. There is an Iman,
a priest—
Q183 Chairman: Father Sumner, I think
we need to stop you. We get the flavour of it, thank you very
much indeed.
Father Sumner: There is one further
thing, in terms of addressing the people who are responsible for
hate crimes. We are putting on a course at the moment for probation
workers who are working at the chalk face with those who have
been responsible for hate crimes and using the whole notion of
Ubuntu used in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission by Desmond
Tutu, and seeing the importance of telling and sharing the stories
for those who have been involved in hate crimes and how that can
bring about transforming prejudice. In terms of what goes on with
peacemakers, some of that story telling, which you will hear about
later on, is also transferring the way people see each other.
It is such an important element and it is not just addressing
those who are already converted, it is going to the heart of the
people who have the hate.
Mr Jones: I would like to ask
The Revd Wilkinson who is the national interfaith adviser for
the Church of England to answer on this.
The Revd Guy Wilkinson: Whether
or not there is enough effort going into interfaith dialogue and
other approaches one could debate but certainly there is a great
deal going on. Perhaps I could give three examples of that. The
first is the Inter Faith Network UK's survey they have produced
this year with Government funding which lists no less than 230
specific interfaith activities across the country, most of them
initiated by local faith communities in one way or another. The
second is the Church of England with other sister churches has
undertaken this past year probably the biggest survey of what
is happening in local parish neighbourhoods across the country
that we have ever done. We have used the 2001 census, the religious
identity question in there, combined with some rather clever software
together with seven regional consultations and a questionnaire
which went out to about 500 parish neighbourhoods to have a look
at what is going on. Without going into the details, I think one
can say there is a remarkably high level of interaction, much
more than I expected, particularly at the local level between
Christian and other faith communities in those areas, and one
could give more detailed evidence of that material. The third
thing is just to mention an initiative which is now bearing fruit
after three years which we know as the Archbishops Listening Exercise
which was a process to see whether it was useful to have a bilateral
national forum between Christian and Muslim communities rather
along the lines of the Council for Christians and Jews which was
set up some years ago. There are other bilaterals but this would
be a major new forum within which those two faith communities
could address a variety of issues. Our hope is this will be put
in place later this year drawing together leaders from the two
communities at the highest levels.
Q184 Mr Singh: We are going to take evidence
later on from the Forum against Islamophobia and Racism. They
did a survey about the awareness of interfaith dialogue within
communities and that survey showed a very low level of awareness.
Would it be correct for me to say the interfaith dialogue that
is going on is just between faith leaders and not between people
of faiths?
The Revd Wilkinson: I do not think
that is the case. This was a survey which covered in total from
the census figures a thousand of our parishes and neighbourhoods
where significant other than Christian faith communities are based
and 500 from the questionnaire. The evidence was very clear from
that survey that there is a multiplicity of day to day contacts.
For example, we asked the question of both members of the congregations
and local clergy "How many contacts do you have with people
of other faiths in your locality in an average month?" "Many/some/few
or none". Across the whole range over 80% put themselves
in the "many" or "some" category. These are
perceptions, and there is plenty more data of that kind but I
want to argue at the local level, quite apart from the formal
interfaith organisations, there is remarkably more contact than
certainly I expected. I think it is fair to say the initiative
for those, not at all surprisingly, given the long rootedness
of Christian communities in these areas mainly comes from the
Christian communities but also often there is a positive response
to it from Muslim, Hindu or Sikh communities in the respective
areas.
Q185 Mr Singh: We will come on to that
area.
Father Sumner: Certainly I think
it is very patchy and unfortunately I have to go around to many
other places to try and convince them of the importance of interfaith
dialogue and how it can be carried out. It does involve faith
leaders and very often they tend to be men. One of the ways we
got around that in Oldham has been to have a women's interfaith
network that has the right of representation on the more general
body, the interfaith forum. In fact, this year our chair is a
representative of the women's interfaith network for the interfaith
forum itself. This is one way we try to include other people.
Yes, I think it is very patchy. I think there needs to be so many
more people convinced. I had occasion recently in Bury to convince
Churches Together to be involved in something like that, as I
have done with the priests' body nationally for Catholic priests.
"You sometimes initially" you have to fight off that
sort of mentality, the defensiveness of getting involved in this
sort of thing, and that is unfortunate but it is there.
Mr Zipfel: Can I make a quick
point. If you ask people in Islington: "Are you aware of
the interfaith forum" which involves mainly leaders, no-one
would be aware of it, but in East London if you ask people "Do
you know of Telco?" hundreds of people would be aware of
Telco. They would not think of it as an interfaith dialogue but
they would know that Christians, Muslims and churches and everybody
was involved in it, and I think that is an important distinction.
Dr Horrocks: I agree, I think
it is very patchy and in some cases there is a bit of an industry
growing up for specialists who indulge in it, almost as a political
activity. The vast majority of the faith subscribers have no idea
who is conducting the discussions, apparently on their behalf.
I think the Christian community has a particular problem there
or particular reality because the Evangelical Alliance covers
multiple denominations and by definition many of these are totally
fragmented and independent. I have recent direct experience of
this. I was in a major city fairly recently where a whole group
of Christians from different denominations were speaking together
about the local interfaith dialogue and nobody there knew who
was speaking for the Christians at all. When we found out nobody
had any clue who this was and what right they had to speak for
Christians at all on that group. I would suggest that is not an
infrequent experience.
Rev Kirby: I agree with almost
everything that has been said on the table already. I would just
add though that I think the critical issue is about being mature
enough to share. Often the issue with faith communities is they
are very protective of their own and want to maintain their beliefs,
values and so on. It is a really good sign of maturity when any
faith can integrate, welcome and be open to learning and sharing
with others. It does not mean you lose sight of your identity
or what you hold to be true but when you can open your doors,
your arms, your organisations, and say "Come and do stuff
with us", I think that sends a louder message to the community
than small interfaith dialogue groups that nobody knows about.
Q186 Mrs Dean: Just looking at my constituency
in Burton I have got an interfaith network and a very mixed community,
in other parts of my constituency it is predominantly Christian
and very little ethnic minority communities. Have you got any
messages as to how we can bring influence into interfaith working
within those communities that do not have a mix of faiths within
them?
Father Sumner: Certainly you have
a situation in Oldham where there are pockets that are almost
completely white and schools which are almost completely white
and then schools which are almost completely Pakistani or Bangladeshi
or whichever. There has been a very definite decision at times
to partner up places. At Saddleworth Civic Hall, we had a celebration,
people from the centre of town went out to celebrate the differences
together in other parts of town to make people aware, whichever
school they go to and whichever workplace they take part in, that
we might not be living in that section of the community for the
rest of our lives, we may be working with people from very different
backgrounds, so we need to be opening ourselves up to people of
all different backgrounds and faiths in any way we possibly can.
Dr Horrocks: I would recommend
the recent survey by the Interfaith Network that is absolutely
packed full of projects which have worked or been successful and
ideas for how to start groups up and that kind of thing. It is
very good research.
Q187 Mr Singh: My other question, Chairman,
is to the representative of the Evangelical Alliance. In your
evidence to us you stated that you believe that leaders of the
Muslim community in the UK should do more to condemn terrorism
carried out by Islamic groups. Also you comment on the restrictions
in some Islamic countries on the practice of other religions.
Do you not think that the Muslim Council of Britain, for example,
have been clear in their condemnation of terrorism? Do you think
that statement is justified?
Dr Horrocks: I would not have
made it if I did not think it was justified. I am not saying that
the Muslim Council have not made statements, I think they could
make more statements and louder ones. I do not think it is enough
to distance themselves from the radicals, which is what I tend
to hear when they do speak. I think it would be helpful for moderates
to be asking questions of the Islamic religion itself and being
self-critical and engaging in dialogue with the various extremes
within Islam, tackling what tend to be taboo subjects of Islamic
hermeneutics, for example is Islam peaceful or is it violent,
really opening up a debate within itself and being public about
it as well. You tend to get the feeling still that it is a taboo
subject. I do feel, also, that when we do hear statements from,
say, for example, the Muslim Council about the experience of Christians
being oppressed in Muslim countries in ways which are incomparably
worse than Moslims in Britain the statements tend to be half-hearted
and they do not come out with strong condemnation and highlight
these issues and make their own positions clear. Again, in my
view, there is a reluctance to deal with taboo questions like,
for example, the issue of Apostasy in Islam, Muslims who convert,
for example, to the Christian faith being guilty of Apostasy and,
therefore, justifying death. I think these taboo questions need
to form part of a public dialogue. I am not saying that the Muslim
Council do not speak, I am saying that the dialogue tends to be
very monochrome and does not range wide enough and include self-criticism.
Q188 Mr Singh: I would agree and support
your tight to raise questions like that. Everybody should have
the right to raise issues which are important. Are you equally
as articulate in your understanding or condemnation of some of
the causes of anguish to the Muslim community on the international
scale? Are you equally as articulate on understanding some of
the causes of terror?
Dr Horrocks: I would hope we are
and if we are asked to be so we would do so. We made very clear
statements at the time of 9/11. We have come out publicly in support
of Muslims wearing the headscarf in France. I have joined with
Muslims in public statements on that front. I think we have done
more than enough to show there are many areas of commonality.
What I tend to be highlighting here is that so very often when
statements are forthcoming from the Muslim side they tend to be
very restricted in their scope. They tend to focus on the suffering
from Islamophobia which is a term which has been identified and
which I regret because I now see a burgeoning industry of phobias:
Christophobia, Judaophobia, Westophobia. I would like to see a
much more serious debate about these kinds of issues rather than
labels being attached to determine strong positions which are
not going to be constructive if we wish to avoid hostility between
communities. We need much more engagement and respectful dialogue.
I do feel the Muslim Council could be more helpful in that regard.
Q189 Chairman: As the Evangelical Alliance,
have you approached the Muslim Council of Britain to discuss those
concerns?
Dr Horrocks: I have personally
and we do have many contacts with the Muslim Council and with
individual Muslims. We are in constant regular with them, yes.
Q190 Chairman: You are in discussion
about these issues?
Dr Horrocks: About these particular
issues, I have discussed them myself with the Muslim Council.
Dr Zaki Badawi explained to me himself the problems that the Muslim
Council itself has. Being the representative voice it feels limited
itself as to what it can address to its own community and is very
conscious of not causing strife within its own community. I got
the impression from Dr Badawi that he has to be very careful what
he says himself, which is very sad. Clearly there is a restrictive
dialogue going on within Islam which is what I have been trying
to point to. If you like, some of my views today have been informed
directly from the Muslim Council dialogue I have had.
Q191 David Winnick: Recognising that
all religions should be able to practise, be it in Saudi Arabia
or anywhere else, without fear of persecution, that is absolutely
essential, and if countries do not they should be condemned, would
I be right, Dr Horrocks, to say that your organisation in particular
is very keen to campaign for conversion in various parts of the
world?
Dr Horrocks: I would hope any
Christian organisation is keen to campaign for conversion in all
parts of the world, that is the essence of the Christian message,
that there is a good news gospel message which should be taken
to all the world.
Q192 David Winnick: Dr Horrocks, no doubt
other Christian denominations represented here also want people
to see, as they see it, a true picture. Islam and Jews all believe
that they have got the true picture and non believers equally
so. Dr Horrocks, I am not condemning or criticising, I just want
an answer, and I am sorry if the impression is otherwise coming
from me. Your Alliance is in the business, is it not, of promoting
Christianity and converting people the whole world over, more
so than other Christian denominations?
Dr Horrocks: I would just respond
to that by saying my organisation is in the business of preserving
religious liberty around the world for everybody.
Q193 Mr Green: Can I move the discussion
on to media coverage because clearly one of the ways in which
terrorist incidents or arrests arising out of suspicions of potential
terrorist activity can have an impact on minority communities,
and obviously the Muslim community in particular, is through the
media, in particular the TV and tabloid press. Perhaps a question
for each of the groups is what do you think the media is doing
that it should not be doing and what do you think they should
be doing that they are not doing?
Mr Jones: If I may respond. Clearly
one does not want to restrict media freedom and one does not want
to insist that particular editorial lines are taken but I think
it is a matter of promoting good journalistic practice, that is
to say seeking to provide coverage on the basis of accurate information,
to approach a representative range of people involved in particular
issues. I think one of the problems that we have sometimes is
that a rather narrow group of Muslim representatives is quoted
whose views are not necessarily those of the whole Muslim community.
It is to do with selectivity in reporting and how that can be
counter-balanced and obviously journalistic practice will follow,
also, general social and cultural trends and the more awareness
there is of different faith communities, the greater sensitivity
perhaps there will be on the part of journalists to many of these
issues. I think it is a question of chipping away on a whole number
of fronts to promote responsible coverage and representative reporting.
Father Sumner: I think there is
little doubt that the media has been part of the problem. In fact,
in my home town of Oldham, the Oldham Chronicle offices
were attacked at the time of the riots in Oldham. They were an
object for the attack precisely because they were seen to be part
of the problem in the way that they reported the various events,
especially to do with Islam and the way that the words Islamic
and terrorism are linked together all too closely and unnecessarily
so. One thing that happened in our area was that Mediation Northern
Ireland came in and worked with our community and to that extent
the editor of the Oldham Chronicle was involved in their
workshops and apparently did an about turn, whether he had a conversion
of some sort I do not know, but just before the elections of last
year he wrote a front page article on the wonderful vision for
Oldham as a multicultural, multifaith town and, therefore, it
was seen, again, that they were becoming part of the solution
rather than just part of the problem. It is what can be done at
times like that to make a statement. Also, the use by the community
of the media. We have heard about the Muslim Council of Britain,
and they have given very useful examples to us in our communities
of when we can use, say, for example, Friday prayers to publicise
and to get the support of the Muslim community for policing in
a town against terrorism, against extremism of one sort or another.
I have examples here of how the Oldham press has allowed the Muslim
communities to speak out in the town against terrorism, and, I
think, very effectively. Also when an attack has taken place by
Asian young lads against a young white lad in the town, immediately,
because we have the strategic groups there, we have been able
to get the Muslim communities to work together to make a statement
in the process to say that they completely are against any behaviour
like that and that it is not typical of their communities. There
are many times when we use the press precisely to put across a
different image, and that can be done so much more than has been
done at the moment.
Q194 Mr Green: That is a really interesting
example about how a local newspaper has clearly thought very deeply
about the coverage and changed because of terrible events. Do
you get the impression that the national press is going through
the same educational process?
Father Sumner: Yes and no. It
is patchy again, is it not? There are tendencies now to change
the phrase "Islamic terrorist" to other things, so there
is some sort of change taking place, but there needs to be a much
more positive vision for cohesion that is put across at different
times by editors of newspapers than the ones that we get. I will
not mention which papers. I am sure you know which ones I am referring
to.
Dr Horrocks: I think Katei may
well say something about the use of language, which I think is
clearly an important thing. The national newspapers are going
to report terrorism as terrorism, and I am not sure that we can
necessarily complain about that. I think that the national newspapers
have probably reacted to criticism by trying to go to the other
extreme. If one has a look at television programming and newspapers
over the last few months, I think there has been a move to the
other extreme. The papers, the television, have been awash with
pro-Islamic programmes in the last few months in an endeavour
to react, I suppose, to the kind of negative image of Islam that
has been presented. I have got a whole long list of pro-Islamic
programmes that have appeared fairly lately. One very good example
that many British people would know is the testimony of Cat Stevens
as to his conversion to Islam, but when did we actually last hear
a programme concentrating on the conversion of a Muslim to Christianity,
for example, in the media? I feel that we are in danger now of
going too much to the other extreme; in other words, the national
press tend to gut-react and we suddenly get a wholesale change,
and no doubt they will go back again in the future. That is just
an observation I would make.
Q195 Mr Green: Reverend Kirby, do you
want to say something about language.
Rev Kirby: Yes. I agree with Don
and others who have said we need to get the balance right and
the knee-jerk reaction needs to be moderated a bit. In terms of
language, I think the media plays a huge part in shaping the language
we use to describe things we see or hear. It has been in the questions
this afternoon: we talk about minorities an awful lot. I do not
think that is a really good way to describe people who are making
a key positive contribution to this society. I think the media
can do a lot to help us reposition in our minds what part religions
play in this country. I have to say, the younger generation that
I work with through the organisation of the church that I am with
only have negative views from the media of what faith groups do;
and I think to change the balance the media need to ensure that
they report the good stuff as well as the negative stuff, not
just the crises but actually the good practice, the real newsworthy
stuff that can get out there, but also be careful of the terminology
that they use and use words that uplift rather than put people
down.
Q196 Mr Green: Specifically for the representatives
of the Evangelical Alliance: in your evidence you say that Islam
seems to suffer from a lower threshold of critical tolerance than
Christians. What do you suggest they should do? How should they
behave differently?
Dr Horrocks: I think I hinted
at this before. I think there is an issue that perhaps Muslims
have to face in that Christianity, and perhaps some other religions,
have been exposed to two centuries and more of post enlightenment
and critique. Therefore, Christianity has become relatively immune
to criticism. We have seen plenty of things that Christians could
react to quite strongly this very week, yet you have not heard
great condemnations coming out from the Evangelical Alliance about
Posh and Becks in the nativity scene, I can assure you, and there
is much worse than that that I deal with every day. We are more
restrained; we are willing to engage in critique; we have been
used to academic critique. There is a different view with Islam.
They have not got a centuries' old tradition of having their sacred
books and their doctrines examined in this kind of way. I appreciate
there is a cultural issue there that perhaps has to be come to
terms with and an adjustment that needs to be made to the realities
of post-enlightenment culture. What should Muslims do? I think
that one of the things that they could do, as I have hinted previously,
is have a willingness to acknowledge their own mistakes as much
as non-Muslims have to acknowledge their mistakes, and perhaps
not to have an incessant blaming of all the ills on western society
as such, which is what I call the monochrome message that we tend
to hear all the time. Let me make it clear, not all Muslims are
saying things like that. Many Muslims I read and could quote from
are indicating how Islam has to come to terms to some extent with
the cultural breadth of the West, to live with it and to be a
blessing to western society rather than to see it as a threat.
I would endorse those Islamic comments.
Q197 David Winnick: As regards incitement
to religious hatred, that has invoked a good deal of controversy,
and I do not believe that the organisations represented here are
altogether enthusiastic about it. Perhaps if I can put the question
to you, Canon Wilkinson, Church of England, the established
church: what disadvantage would there be? One can obviously see
the many advantages of such a change in the law, particularly
for the Muslim religion. They have argued for it and are clearly
in favour, but what about the disadvantage, Canon?
The Revd Guy Wilkinson: I think
the potential disadvantage probably lies in use being made of
such a law for polemical reasons. It seems to me that, of course,
it is hard to disagree with the notion that nobody should be involved
in inciting religious hatred. Clearly that is a common position.
Q198 David Winnick: All civilised people
would agree that it is wrong, to say the least.
The Revd Guy Wilkinson: But I
think what is perfectly imaginable is that whilst certainly from
the Church of England point of view broadly we think there is
a touch more advantage than a touch less advantage, the sort of
disadvantage that would come along, quite possibly, would be a
situation where an organisation, perhaps a religious organisation,
whether Christian or Muslim, or Sikh, or whatever it might be,
which would seek to provoke an issue for someone to have themselves
arrested under that legislation and to use it as a platform for
the promotion of their particular perspective and views. I do
not think that is a helpful use of the law.
Q199 David Winnick: That is a pitfall,
as far as you see it?
The Revd Guy Wilkinson: I think
that is a potential disadvantage.
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