Examination of Witnesses (Questions 331-339)
25 JANUARY 2005
CHIEF CONSTABLE
MATTHEW BAGGOTT,
ASSISTANT CHIEF
CONSTABLE ROBERT
BECKLEY, DETECTIVE
SUPERINTENDENT DAVID
TUCKER, MR
KEN MACDONALD
QC AND MR
NICK HARDWICK
Q331 Chairman: Good afternoon. Perhaps
I could start by asking each of the witnesses just briefly to
introduce themselves for the record and then I will go to the
questions.
Assistant Chief Constable Beckley:
Good afternoon, Chairman. I am Rob Beckley, Assistant Chief Constable
of Hertfordshire. I am the lead on communities and counter-terrorism
with ACPO TAM and faith issues with ACPO Race and Diversity.
Chief Constable Baggott: Good
afternoon. I am Matthew Baggott, the Chief Constable of Leicestershire
Constabulary. I am the Second Vice President of ACPO. I lead on
neighbourhood policing in particular.
Mr Hardwick: Good afternoon. I
am Nick Hardwick, Chairman of the Independent Police Complaints
Commission.
Mr Macdonald: I am Ken Macdonald,
Director of Public Prosecutions.
Detective Superintendent Tucker:
I am Dave Tucker, a Superintendent working for ACPO TAM on community
issues.
Q332 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Mr Beckley, in the course of this inquiry we have had witnesses
from most faith groups telling us that community relations have
got worse over the past few years, particularly since the events
of 9/11 and the increased focus on international terrorism. Would
you agree with that assessment?
Assistant Chief Constable Beckley:
We get a slightly schizophrenic assessment and I think that is
reflected in the evidence that you have received. We do get feedback
from communities that says since 9/11 in a local sense that their
links with their local police have improved and that they are
getting a lot more direct service and contact with mosques and
other community organisations of all faiths. It has been an opportunity
that has been taken. On the converse we also get a lot of feedback
about the use of counter-terrorist powers quite negative feedback
which is not totally borne out by the figures that we have got.
The figures are used very selectively and we get the feedback
on a wider scale, a national scale, that the counter-terrorist
powers have had a detrimental effect on community relations.
Q333 Chairman: You talked primarily there
but quite fairly about relations between different communities
and the police. What is your assessment of relations between communities,
issues like for example Islamophobia where the Muslim groups have
told us that they feel that has got worse in terms of fear, suspicion
and resentment of Muslims? Would it be your sense that it is worse?
Assistant Chief Constable Beckley:
In terms of hard evidence we have got very little. Three forces
do measure Islamophobic incidents. What we have seen is a small
increase in potential incidents which as much as anything could
be due to recording practices. However, we do get a lot of feedback
from community groups about low level type incidents and just
a general climate where they feel uneasy and to certain extent
under some degree of threat in communities. We have set up the
National Communities Tensions Team very much to keep this monitored
and to get the information from all forces, and we do not see
a significant rise in tension nationally. We have not seen it.
We get reported incidents and reported concerns but we are not
seeing an assessed rise in tensions and problems in communities.
Q334 Chairman: That is interesting. Is
the information that you have just mentioned from the four forces
publicly available? Is that something that could be shared with
the Committee?
Assistant Chief Constable Beckley:
Yes, it is.
Q335 Chairman: Thank you. You mentioned
finally, Mr Beckley, that the issue of the use of counter-terrorism
powers is one of the things that is raised with you. What assessment
have you been able to make in your ACPO role of the extent to
which there is a real problem as opposed to a perceived problem
in the use of those powers?
Assistant Chief Constable Beckley:
There are two particular areas of articulated concern. One is
the arrests. What we are seeing in the actual figures is a reduction
now of numbers of arrests. Unfortunately, it gets presented as
700 and an ever-increasing number of arrests since 9/11, which
it is bound to be. That is not a very helpful way of looking at
it. If you look at it in a year-by-year context, we are seeing
a fall in the number of arrests. Last year in 2004 there were
165 arrests whereas in 2003 there were 270 arrests under the counter-terrorism
powers. The number for pre-planned operations has similarly fallen,
so in terms of arrests there is a fall in the number. In terms
of stop and search, which is section 44 of the Terrorism Act and
which people have given evidence to you about and made much comment
on, yes, there was a 300% increase against Asians, which is commonly
quoted, but that was in the context of the year after 9/11 when
there was a 150% increase in its use overall. Even then, the underlying
proportion of stop and search is the same as the proportion in
the populations where it is mostly used, within a couple of percentage
points. The figures themselves do not prove disproportionate indiscriminate
use of that power in those communities. The indicative figures
for 2003-04, which I think are due to be published shortly, show
the indications are, if anything, the proportion of Asians being
stopped and searched has been falling in that year. So in a statistical
way the statistics do not bear out discrimination in the way they
are often used.
Q336 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Mr Macdonald, in October of last year you were reported as arguing
that the war on terror had sparked a growth in Islamophobia. What
was the basis on which you gave that warning and do you think
that the trend has continued since?
Mr Macdonald: What I said is that
terrorism is creating divisions between communities, which of
course is one of its purposes; it is intended to do that. We have
evidence from our point of view of an increase in the sort of
low-level tensions that Mr Beckley is talking about. One is talking
about racially and religiously aggravated crimes involving racist
and religiously motivated abuse of cab drivers at night, shop
owners, people in the street, that sort of low level aggressive
criminal conduct which we find has increasingly been accompanied
by that sort of abuse, so it was a feeling which my front-line
prosecutors have that there are increasing tensions at that sort
of low level which are probably inspired or contextualised by
the threat of international terrorism.
Q337 Chairman: Fine, thank you. Mr Baggott,
in terms of your general responsibilities on neighbourhood
policing, I think quite a specific question. A number of our previous
witnesses have laid the blame for at least some of the tensions
on media coverage of terrorism issues and the way that asylum
and so on has been covered. Do you have a view on what contribution
media coverage as a whole is making towards any community tensions
at the moment?
Chief Constable Baggott: I think
the context is really important when it comes to either high profile
security operations or the figures themselves when they are published.
My colleague mentioned the 300% rise. I will give you a very specific
example of that. I was at a multi-faith dinner before Christmas
in Leicester and one of the speakers spoke very passionately about
the 300% rise against Asian colleagues. When you say for the whole
of the country that represents about eight people a day, and is
about three forces, and that the powers are very specifically
targeted and they are endorsed by ministers, you suddenly get
a completely different take on the context. I think sometimes
what people remember is the headline without the detail underneath
it. In terms of confidence I think it is really important that
media and others work very hard at contextualising what the figures
are actually saying rather than the global side of that. It is
exactly the same with ordinary stop and search figures too.
Q338 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Mr Tucker, in the Metropolitan Police evidence, the Met have said
that "here are also human rights issues in relation to the
British Nationals held at Guantanamo Bay and a comprehensive risk
assessment has been completed by the Metropolitan Police Service
in relation to the repatriation of a number of British nationals
to this country," which of course is taking place as we speak.
Perhaps you could tell the Committee what exactly the risk was
that you were assessing and what conclusions were drawn.
Detective Superintendent Tucker:
We came at it from the community tension angle and broadly there
were five risks. One was that the detainees on their return would
seek publicity and seek to undermine the reputation of the police
and/or the Government. The second one was that the detainees would
become the focus of attention from people who supported them and
therefore that there were potential public order issues. The third
one was that they would become the focus of attention from people
who were broadly against them, again public order issues. At the
time there was debate around whether the detainees would be arrested
when they returned to the country and we knew the decision around
that was very sensitive within Muslim communities and we put the
two sides of the impact of that decision. And finally there are
independent observers who are assisting with the repatriation
and again that is a cause of some concern within Muslim communities
who would like the independent observers to be identified, but
we feel the risks around that are considerable and so we have
maintained confidentiality about that. So after the decisions
were made that the repatriations were going to take place we had
those five risks and the community impact assessment formed part
of that.
Q339 Chairman: Now that the process is
actually underway, have things moved on since your initial assessment?
What is your feeling now about whether the repatriation is likely
to give rise to any significant problems? Have you anticipated
the problems and are you on top of it all?
Detective Superintendent Tucker:
It is difficult—
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