Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
TUESDAY 16 MARCH 2004
SIR JOHN
PARKER, DR
MARY HARRIS,
MS SAMANTHA
SHERRATT AND
MR PETER
WRENCH
Q420 Mr Prosser: Ms Sherratt, the
Committee has been full of compliments for the Transco scheme,
before I ask you about your initiative do you have a view on the
Transco project?
Ms Sherratt: Yes. Can I just start
by thanking the Committee for inviting the Howard league to give
evidence today. We very much welcome the chance to contribute
again to this whole issue of rehabilitation. Yes, we have had
good correspondence and good conversations, with Mary Harris particularly,
and we were very pleased she spoke at a conference of ours only
a couple of weeks ago. There are many lessons which can be learned
by individual prisons and by other companies and that is why the
Howard League is very pleased to see the whole initiative wound
out even further.
Q421 Mr Prosser: Returning to the
Real Work Project, we have had a little glimpse behind the curtain
from various exchanges, do you want to give us your view of the
benefits of that scheme in comparison with what exists now?
Ms Sherratt: I think the underlying
philosophy behind the Howard League's Real Work Project is to
help prisoners re-engage with society once they leave prison.
We would like the prisoners who take part in our business to spend
their time usefully and we want to show them work can be productive,
lucrative and life-enhancing and we want to instil the work ethic.
Many of the workshops currently operating in prisons do not do
that, they pay so poorly, the skills needed are so few that at
the end of the day a lot of prisoners are left with the impression
that crime pays better, it is certainly more interesting and more
rewarding. We want to counteract that, we want to set up a demonstration
business that shows that work can be important and can be an integral
part of people's lives, as work is to you and I. We also want
them to develop their work-related skills and tie that in with
gaining qualifications as well. Out of that we hope this is going
to be a great opportunity we can offer 11 prisoners at a time.
It is not an opportunity for nothing, we will expect prisoners
to do a fair day's work for a fair day's reward. Out of the fair
wage we hope to pay they will have the same deductions that you
and I face, they will have to pay tax and National Insurance,
they will have to meet any payments required of them by the court,
they will have to pay child support, save for their release, hopefully
contribute towards their family's upkeep, make a donation towards
Victim Support, which I think is incredibly important for winning
the hearts and minds of the public but it is also very much in
line with the Social Exclusion Report's recommendations. Whilst
we cannot currently charge prisoners bread and board, although
I understand that is being challenged today, we feel that there
is scope for prisoners to make a contribution towards the prison,
towards making the prison experience constructive. We are not
asking them to literally put money they have earned into the pot
that will then make the cell door or pay for the cell door which
incarcerates them. It may be that they make a contribution towards
a positive programme that will get more families involved in prison
life.
Q422 Mr Prosser: Can you tell us
a little bit about the difficulties and the barriers you have
had setting it up, have you had lots of co-operation from everyone,
what about the Prison Service?
Ms Sherratt: It has been a very
interesting experience—that sounded rather negative—it
is an ambitious business proposal which we have and what we needed
was a very "can do" governor who was prepared to look
outside established practice. We did speak to several prisons
before we settled on The Mount. I wish Paul Whelan, the Governor,
and Doug Harvey the Industrial Manager were here because they
have been very accommodating and very open to our ideas. Some
of the opposition, not necessarily opposition, some of the barriers
we could not cross with some of the other prison was the whole
issue of paying the minimum wage. One governor said to me "you
cannot pay people more than the cooks" and that was the end
of the conversation because there was no way past that. Another
prison was opposed to the Howard League bringing in its own management,
they wanted the person running the workshops to be Prison Service
internal and the Howard League is very keen this enterprise should
be run as any business on the outside would be with our own manager
who we employ. There were the issues which have already been raised
earlier, such as the short working hours, it ranges from an average
of 25 hours a week and I noticed Dartmoor only manages four hours.
If we are going to operate as a business we needed a prison where
we could operate a full working week. Issues of storage, getting
things in and out of the prison, those are all the day-to-day
difficulties that we were facing with some of the other prisons
and which The Mount was more able to accommodate or to overcome.
At Prison Service Headquarters Wayne Cook has been terribly helpful
in terms of giving guidance on running a print workshop. Other
industrial managers such as Sandra Dingle who has now left Swaleside
have been invaluable in giving advice on actually working within
prison.
Q423 Mr Prosser: Does it mean a lot
more work for the Prison Service? What is in it for the Prison
Service?
Ms Sherratt: Certainly we hope
that there will be something in it for the Governor at The Mount
as we will help him meet some of his key performance indicators,
we will keep 11 prisoners occupied, we hope to take them through
related training. I am not expecting to turn out 11 printers at
the end of it. They also get the opportunity to take part in small
business skills, training, for example, the experience of working
in a small, socially-minded business is desperately important
to us as well. We hope the broader implications of the business
will be that it is a demonstration initiative we can then use
as a model for other people to follow. I have a vision for another
member of staff, a fair work adviser who will talk in a consultancy
fashion to companies who are not sure about how to get involved
in prison work or if they are involved they do not know what they
should be doing about it. I was talking to several leading retailers
recently as part of an ethical trading initiative meeting and
several of them just found that they had prison labour in their
supply chain and they did not know what to do about it, they did
not know whether to pull out quickly or whether to get more involved.
They did not know if they should be more involved directly with
what happened in the prison. They were not comfortable with the
fact that they were finding their suppliers were using prison
labour without the connection being there with the company. One
retailer almost bit my hand off when I said "I will take
you round a prison and show you how it can work". There is
huge scope for taking the lessons which the Howard League is going
to be learning, which we are already using, we did a feasibility
study which we have been able to use to make recommendations for
other companies who would like to get involved in prison work.
The initiative we are doing is much more than just our print firm.
Q424 Mr Prosser: Are you talking
about looking for other companies to come and see your scheme
or looking for another Transco?
Ms Sherratt: The Howard League
would like to see many more companies getting involved in prison
work in the workshops. There are some wonderful training schemes
going on of which Transco is a shining example and there is lots
of educational work going on, particularly in developing basic
skills. What sometimes gets lost in the process is the actual
work experience that people get in prison. Some prisoners are
in there for a long time and if all they have when they come out
is three years' experience of counting 10 screws into a packet
and then stapling the top for 15 hours a week it is not exactly
going to set them up for success in getting a job on the outside.
Q425 Mr Prosser: You have talked
about the possible conflict between these salaries that full-time
workers within the regime are earning and what prisoners might
earn, and if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, what would
you say to some of my constituents who would complain that people
in their own community outside of prison, law abiding people,
are hard pressed to find meaningful employment or any employment
in some areas and just across the prison wall people are being
spoon fed—other people's words—into training and new
skills and new jobs.
Ms Sherratt: At the end of the
day you have to look at what the outcome of such an initiative
will be. We hope that by providing them with opportunities to
take qualifications and to get work experience that at the end
of the day they will not commit further crime when they leave
prison. Most people been a victim of crime of some sort and it
is a level at which you can try and get through the importance
of rehabilitation. Most people would rather know somebody coming
out of prison will stay on the straight and narrow.
Q426 Mr Prosser: You have talked
about the need to bring in new private companies, what about the
role of the voluntary sector in these matters, do they have an
important role in the future?
Ms Sherratt: Definitely. The voluntary
sector has always been innovative and has always been brave and
is willing to try new things. I think that certainly the Howard
League believe that the voluntary sector does have a role to play
in encouraging new thinking. The Howard League also believe it
is much more about encouraging social enterprise and encouraging
businesses to come into prison. There is plenty of scope for everybody's
involvement, not just the voluntary sector, it may just take the
voluntary sector to spur it along.
Q427 Mr Singh: Is this the first
work project which the Howard League has been involved with in
terms of prison?
Ms Sherratt: We have hands-on
experience of projects in prison. We ran what was called the Trouble-shooter
Project in Feltham where we employed a barrister who did casework
with the boys in the prison. He worked with about 800 boys. That
project was then taken over by the Children's Society and funded
by the Youth Justice Board and that has now been rolled out nationally.
That is a good example of the Howard League setting up an innovative
project which gets taken broader and then adopted nationally.
We do not have hands-on experience of working in an industry in
a prison and we recognise that. We have been working with people
in the print world and with people in the business and political
world to make sure that we are getting all of the best advice
we can, this ranges from working with a production manager in
a single print firm in the community to actually talking to Sir
John Egan at the CBI to see what the ramifications could be for
business as a whole.
Q428 Mr Singh: Do you see this particular
project as ground breaking for the Howard League and the Prison
Service?
Ms Sherratt: Yes. It is not something
that we are undertaking lightly. I have this rather huge business
plan on which we have taken lots of advice. It is not something
we are going to take lightly and foolishly.
Q429 Mr Singh: How will the print
industry itself react? You did say that you were going to pay
fair wages. I do not know what a fair wage is, could you be undercutting
other parts of the private printing industry in the wages you
pay?
Ms Sherratt: When I say a fair
wage I am talking about the minimum wage. The Howard League will
not be able to match the exact salary that people are getting
on the outside and I think what would be deeply unpopular as well.
What businesses have to realise and the Howard League has realised
is that working in prisons is not a cheap option and prisoners
should not be seen as cheap labour. There are on-costs just as
you would have on the outside. The Mount will be charging me for
the space I will be using, they will be charging us for the electricity
and the security aspects as well. Running an industry in a prison
is not a cheap option, it does have its expenses as well.
Q430 Mr Singh: You could still undercut
other printing firms?
Ms Sherratt: The Howard League
has been doing a cost analysis of the sort of work we would be
doing and our aim is to be competitive. To be honest having looked
at the business plan I cannot undercut everybody, I would love
to have a go but I cannot undercut everybody. The prices we are
charging are very comparable with some in the voluntary sector.
Q431 Mr Singh: You said in an earlier
reply you were looking for a "can do" governor—and
you obviously found one—were there parts of the Prison Service
or governors who did not want to know at all?
Ms Sherratt: They did not want
to know. I am pleased they could see the merits of the Howard
League proposal but they could not necessarily see past some of
the barriers I mentioned such as the whole issue of the full working
week or paying a higher wage, that is why we did not settle on
some of the other prisons but ended up in The Mount.
Q432 Mr Singh: Have you found any
clash of values between yourselves, the voluntary sector, your
own philosophy and the philosophy of the Prison Service?
Ms Sherratt: I do not think we
would in that the Prison Service want to see people going through
a rehabilitation process that is successful and so does the Howard
League, and both parties would see that good work experience is
one of those ways of doing it. I do not see any potential conflict.
Q433 Mr Singh: Has the Prison Service
always been happy to work with the voluntary sector or is this
a relatively new thing in terms of the co-operation that you are
receiving?
Ms Sherratt: Yes. In terms of
hands-on projects this is quite new for the Howard League, very
much of our work in the past has been policy based. I am not sure
I can comment apart from the project that I mentioned, the Trouble-shooter
Project, and we have had an advisory project in one of the girls'
prisons as well, very hands-on. The ethos behind it is the same
for the Prison Service as they are for us. I know there is an
awful lot of voluntary sector organisations involved in prisons
and they can be the catalyst for lots of very exciting things
and can also plug the gaps there are in the Prison Service at
the moment.
Mr Singh: Can I wish you well.
Q434 David Winnick: When the 11 are
paid would the deductions be made accordingly along the lines
we know about. How would that be calculated? Do I take it the
Prison Service will give the sums involved for accommodation,
meals and the rest of it, is that how it is worked out?
Ms Sherratt: Everything will be
administered by the Howard League, we will do our own payroll.
What we cannot have are prisoners with more disposable cash than
other prisoners. I know that has been a concern of some of the
governors we have spoken to.
Q435 David Winnick: You are doing
the deducting, I understand all that, on an equal basis, and that
will be done on information given by the Prison Service?
Ms Sherratt: We will not be deducting
board and lodgings, we cannot legally do that. What we will be
doing is asking the prisoners to make a contribution, because
we cannot force them, towards something which will make the prison
experience more constructive. We cannot ask them to pay board
and lodgings but we can ask that they contribute to something
like a family day, something the Prison Service itself would not
necessarily be able to fund but will benefit more than just the
prisoner themselves.
Q436 David Winnick: In the early
days there is a scheme which obviously has our full support and
hopefully the Prison Service as well but you do not have a situation
whereby they get a wage and then there are deductions accordingly,
that will be in the future, not now as I understand what you are
saying?
Ms Sherratt: We can do the deductions
such as tax and National Insurance and we would love to see them
save for pensions as well. Legally we cannot charge them board
and lodgings as much as it would be a useful tool for the Howard
League to charge for board and lodgings because it would be very
popular with the public as prisoners paying their way, but legally
we cannot do that at the moment.
Q437 David Winnick: Presumably in
the future you would have that if it was possible to arrange or
is that simply not possible?
Ms Sherratt: At the moment it
is not possible although I understand that the whole board and
lodgings ruling is being challenged today so tomorrow we may have
a different answer.
Q438 David Winnick: If any of the
prisoners say no to the voluntary contribution there is not much
you can do, is there?
Ms Sherratt: No, there is not.
Prisoners will be very much encouraged as part of their contract
to have the deductions that we are asking, we cannot force them
but the Howard League foresee that most will comply because of
the other benefits they will receive from the project.
David Winnick: I am sure that will be
the position.
Q439 Chairman: Mr Wrench, one final
question, obviously it was not possible for the Howard League
to set up an initiative like this in just any prison, are you
taking any initiatives within the Prison Service to change the
culture so that more prison governors would have the outlook or
the frame of mind that would make it easier for voluntary sector
organisations to put this sort of thing on.
Mr Wrench: I think the culture
is generally changing. I have only been doing my present job for
12 months but my sense is that we are getting a lot better at
partnership working and a lot more open to creative ideas that
involve all sorts of people, whether it is the voluntary sector
employers or other groups coming into prisons and working with
us. I think the culture is changing. I am very glad that The Mount
seems to be a comfortable fit with what the Howard League want
to do. I would defend other governors who might not have found
it so comfortable, they have got establishments to run and they
have to think about the impact of making provision for 11 prisoners
against what they are doing for all of their other inmates. I
am pleased it seems to be working in The Mount and I look forward
to seeing the results.
Chairman: Can I thank you all very much
indeed. Sorry it has been a lengthy afternoon because of the vote.
Thank you very much indeed.
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