Examination of Witnesses (Questions 500
- 519)
TUESDAY 25 MAY 2004
PAUL GOGGINS
MP AND MR
MARTIN NAREY
Q500 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Is that specifically
on the issue of sentencing?
Paul Goggins: We discussed a number
of issues, sentencing being one issue. Also, in my capacity as
the Minister responsible for the Probation Service, to make sure
that the Probation Service responds in a timely and effective
way to the needs of the courts. That has been a particular issue
that I have discussed with judges. I might say as well that some
months ago I appointed an individual within the Home Office to
go out on my behalf up and down the country to meet judges, to
also meet magistrates, to go and communicate some of the message
from the Home Office but, more important than anything, to listen
to the concerns and the points of view which sentencers have because
it seems to me that we need to improve dialogue between the Home
Office, the Prison Service, the Probation Service and those who
are sentencing prisoners so that we have a proper dialogue. That
is something I am determined to improve. Martin's work with the
Sentencing Guidelines Council will also help in that regard.
Q501 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: The observation
that judges made to me is that Home Office ministers seem to live
in ivory towers and had not taken the trouble to go down and speak
to them personally. On the issue of churn, one of the things that
particularly impressed me about the German system was to avoid
moving prisoners on, prisoners are multi-categorised, so within
one prison, the Pennsylvania-type prisons, which are very large,
they can accommodate Class A, B and C prisoners, thus reducing
the requirement to move them on effectively. Has that model been
looked at here? If it has been looked at, what was the outcome
of that consideration? Could it be re-looked at given the problems
associated with people moving on in terms of their ability to
be rehabilitated?
Mr Narey: It has been looked at.
Most of our local prisons hold all sorts of prisoners from Category
B down sometimes to Category D and sometimes when somebody who
would do perfectly well in an open prison is doing well in a local
prison, in times past they have been allowed to finish their sentence
there. Ironically they are often more popular than open prisons
which are very remote. It is an expensive way of using places.
If you are under the sort of population pressures that we are
then it is necessary to move, as I have explained, to use every
bed. In terms of what we might do in the future in terms of designing
new prisons, the Home Secretary and Minister have asked me to
look at whether or not we can design larger multifunction prisons
that give exactly that purpose, so within a single perimeter you
might have accommodation for different categories of prisoners
as we reduce security and possibly accommodation for both men
and women. We are examining that at the moment and we believe
we can do that subject to finding large enough sites.
Q502 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Finally,
if I may. The incidence of sex offenders refusing to engage in
sex offender treatment programmes is far higher in this country
than it is in Germany. In the multi-categorised prisons that we
visited they talked about sex offenders being included in general
prisons and, in fact, the population within those prisons acting
as a positive force and a positive source of encouragement which
pushes individuals into sex offender treatment programmes which
are perhaps conducted within the prison and then back out on to
wings where it is understood by fellow prisoners that these people
have been rehabilitated in the sense that they are now more able
to manage their behaviour. We have prisons in this country largely
dedicated to sex offender treatment programmes, has there been
some consideration of moving them back into the general population
with the express purpose of trying to get more of them through
peer pressure on to the sex offender treatment programmes?
Paul Goggins: My understanding
is that one of the difficulties we face is that there is a larger
than average number of deniers, people who deny their offence,
amongst the sex offender prison population and, therefore, engaging
them with particular programmes can be quite a challenge. I can
confirm to the Committee that 1,091 sex offender treatment programmes
were completed last year. Certainly it is our intention to work
with sex offenders in prisons in the way that you have indicated
so that they can do those courses, they can confront their offending
behaviour and we can prepare them for life when they have been
released from prison.
Q503 Bob Russell: Minister, the closure
of so many of the nation's psychiatric hospitals and the rapid
increase in the prison population: a coincidence or a consequence?
Paul Goggins: I think that is
a very challenging question and almost impossible to answer because
doubtless there will be some interconnections. I think the point
is how do we respond to the fact that a substantial number of
people in our prisons do suffer from severe mental health problems.
Let me answer in this way. First of all, if anybody has need to
be in a hospital rather than a prison, if they are diagnosed by
a psychiatrist that they need hospital care then they should be
in hospital and we make every effort to make sure that they are.
I think last year, from memory, about 650 prisoners were transferred
out of prisons into secure mental hospitals.[1]
Where that is appropriate, that is where they should be. I have
made it clear that I do not want to see people waiting unduly
to get that treatment when they need it. In addition to that,
there are about 5,000 prisoners at any one time in our system
who have severe mental health problems and the way that we are
tackling that is through something which is called a mental health
in-reach initiative where we are putting substantial investment
into improving mental health care for those prisoners. Some 300
additional staff have now been added to provide that additional
mental health care. Any prisoner should be able to expect the
same kind of mental health support as if they were in the community,
and that is our objective. Finally, of course, nobody should be
in prison because they have got a mental health problem. If somebody
has committed a minor offence and has a significant mental health
problem then, if it is appropriate, they should be dealt with
in the community in terms of a punishment and in the community
in terms of their mental health care. That is the kind of model
that we aim for. I do not accept that because somebody has a mental
health problem they should not be in prison. I think it is perfectly
acceptable for people with mental health problems to be in prison
but what we have to do is provide them with the right kind of
support whilst they are there. Just one other thing, if I may
add, finally. A couple of weeks ago I opened the new unit at Frankland
Prison for prisoners with severe personality disorder. This is
a group who, frankly, have been cast aside and forgotten for far
too long. They are among the most dangerous and challenging people
in our country but we have to work with them. What we are doing
at Frankland and Whitemoor is providing new places with considerable
investment, might I say, to try to provide effective ways of working
with these dangerous and difficult people. Typically people would
be in those units for three to five years and substantial work
will be done with them. I hope I have been able to give some indication
that the question you ask is a challenging one and the response
that we are making needs to be proportionate to the health needs
that individuals have.
Q504 Bob Russell: Minister, as you
know our inquiry is into the rehabilitation of prisoners and I
would put it to you that those with serious psychiatric or, indeed,
minor psychiatric problems, rehabilitation in the sense that we
are looking at and also for the prisoner involved is almost an
impossibility.
Paul Goggins: I return to the
theme of short prison sentences. If somebody with a severe mental
health problem is only in prison for a short time and does not
get the follow-through care that they perhaps need then clearly
they are not helped by the system. That is why, as we move into
the new sentencing arrangements where all forms of custody will
be followed by supervision in the community and there will be
more community alternatives available, we will more adequately
provide for their needs. You are right that many people under
the current system leave prison without the support that they
need.
Q505 Bob Russell: You have raised
the question of short-term prisoners and in the course of this
inquiry we have been told many times that for short-term prisoners
it is almost a question of "warehousing of human beings for
the sole purpose of containment", which is the phrase that
has been used. When judges and magistrates impose these short-term
sentences do they tally up? The cost to the public purse across
the year of keeping the equivalent of 40 people in prison over
a year is £1 million. Just because someone is going for 28
days they may think there is only a small cost but, of course,
once you start multiplying all those 28 day sentences or two month
sentences you quickly reach £1 million. Are magistrates and
judges aware of the financial consequences of what they are doing?
Paul Goggins: I will ask Martin
to comment on this, if you do not mind, because he has worked
with the Sentencing Guidelines Council. If I can just say a couple
of things as a prelude to that. One of the best new Orders that
we have developed and the Probation Service has developed has
been the Drug Treatment and Testing Order working with some very
chaotic, difficult offenders. One of the best features of that
Order is that every month the offender and the Probation Service
have to go back to the court, to the judge or the magistrate,
to explain what has happened in the preceding month and how progress
is being made. That kind of feedback on sentencing will be enormously
helpful. In more strategic terms what we have to do, and Martin's
work here is very important, is to show to sentencers what is
effective in terms of sentencing and to begin to show that the
more intensive community programme can be more effective than
the short-term prison sentence.
Mr Narey: The short answer is
no, they do not take that into account. Until very recently they
have not been asked to take cost or effectiveness into account.
The Sentencing Guidelines Council, which has now met twice, is
tasked not just with promoting consistency in sentencing, because
there are some quite inexplicable geographical variations in sentencing
between different areas, but the Sentencing Guidelines Council
must also issue guidelines to promote the most efficient use of
correctional resources. I have been providing the Lord Chief Justice
with details of effectiveness, of what appears to work and also
on costs as well. If I may say so, the main problem with magistrates
is although the number of people coming to justice has not changed
in the last 10 years, numbers sent to custody by magistrates'
courts has risen from 10,000 to 35,000 a year. There are 31,000
magistrates, so most magistrates say, "I only sent one person
to custody last year", but the fact is if they did not send
anyone the year before it is a huge change. I think magistrates
find it very hard to believe that they are acting in a more punitive
manner. Collectively they certainly are, although individually
they may only use custody rarely.
Q506 Bob Russell: I have referred
to the warehousing of human beings, of short-term prisoners. One
of the big problems that has been identified is because they are
in custody for such a short time, work programmes are difficult
to co-ordinate or sustain, training programmes cannot be completed
before release, and also it has been indicated that even in that
short time they could be moved two or three times. How can this
problem be overcome? What is the Prison Service doing under the
new regime so that prisoners are properly programmed through the
system and rehabilitation is more than just words?
Paul Goggins: I think what we
are trying to make clear this afternoon is that there is a limit
to how much can be done within the confines of the present system.
What we have to do is to assist sentencers in changing the pattern
of sentencing so that we are not dealing with as many short-term
sentence prisoners. In addition to the measures we have mentioned,
we have begun to pilot a new form of custody called intermittent
custody where prisoners will spend part of the week in prison
but part of the week at home. That is particularly beneficial
if people have already got a job. The pilots are beginning to
work quite well. People are going to prison for the weekend but
carrying on working, earning a living, supporting their family
during the week.
Q507 Chairman: Is that not a bit
of a counsel of despair? It seems you are saying to the Committee
"we cannot do anything for short-term prisoners so we will
aim to have less of them", but if you had work regularly
available for all prisoners, short-term prisoners could do that.
If you did not have a shortfall of purposeful activity in locations
they would be able to do that. In the light of what we have heard,
even if people were moved, if they were able to follow even short
courses from one place to another it would have some value given
that you will always have short-term prisoners. I get the sense
slightly that everyone has given up on doing anything about short-term
prisoners and we just hope we are going to have less of them.
Paul Goggins: Martin will want
to respond. No, we have not given up but I think what we are saying
is that we can get a better outcome if we can do more intensive
work. That applies equally to those who are in prison and those
who are in the community. We just need to work with them for longer
periods of time to get the best results.
Q508 Chairman: With a better prison
regime you could be doing more with short-term prisoners than
you currently are. Would that be fair?
Mr Narey: Yes, and we are. Although
obviously we want to move people out of prison, we are always
going to have some short-term sentence prisoners because when
people have abused community penalties we need to use short-term
custody and we need to adjust. For example, the majority of the
people who get drug detoxification in prison certainly will be
short sentences because characteristically they are in and out
quite frequently. We have hugely increased the number of detoxifications
to about 60,000 a year. We are very close to getting accreditation
by an independent body in terms of its likely efficacy for a very
short drug treatment programme. Up until now what has been beyond
us is to find something that works in the area of drug treatment
or, indeed, in terms of cognitive skills that you can do in a
short period of time precisely to fill this gap. We have tried
to develop something which will work. The sentencing problem and
the increase in the population does erode that progress. While
you were talking to my colleagues from the PGA, I worked out that
last year the Prison Service produced an extra two and a half
million activity hours for prisoners and it was absorbed entirely
by the increase in the population of 2,000 people, so the average
of 23.4 did not shift at all despite this huge expansion in work.
If we got the population down and kept those work levels up we
really would have the sort of regime for all prisoners that you
would want to see.
Q509 Bob Russell: Minister, when
did this part-time or weekend prison experiment come into being?
Paul Goggins: It began at the
end of January in Kirkham Prison for men and Morton Hall for women.
Both units can take up to 40 prisoners at any one time. We will
be evaluating the success of these pilots and if they are successful
we will be rolling them out.
Q510 Bob Russell: I wonder if you
would allow me a degree of smug satisfaction when I point out
that in the last Parliament this Committee in its Alternatives
to Prison Services proposed just such a scheme which was rubbished
by the then Home Secretary and the Home Office. I am delighted
that four years down the line it is at least being looked at seriously.
To come back to the new wonderful regime of seamless service between
the Prison and Probation Services, is it possible for short-term
prisoners to commence courses in custody and complete them in
the community? Is that what is going to happen?
Paul Goggins: Yes, that is exactly
right. We have heads of learning and skills in our prisons now
whose job it is to put in place the right kinds of courses and
skills training for the inmates there. Part of their remit will
be to extend that beyond the prison out into the education providers
in the wider community. I want to see that happen so that the
people do not do the same course twice and there is a continuation
and people get the benefit of the investment.
Q511 Bob Russell: So you are giving
the Committee an assurance this afternoon that the community social
service agencies will be engaged in the rehabilitation agenda
to facilitate that approach?
Paul Goggins: That is absolutely
the approach that we are going to follow.
Q512 Bob Russell: I am delighted
to hear that. So far as vocational training and rehabilitation
within prisons, as I understand it only about 10,000 prisoners
out of a prison population of 75,000 are thus engaged. Why is
the Prison Service not giving a higher priority to engaging prisoners
in constructive prison work and expanding the type and number
of its prison workshops? We have seen examples in Sweden and Germany
and yet we have been told this afternoon of an example in this
country where men are using sewing machines to make fishing nets,
for which there is not much demand.
Paul Goggins: Martin may want
to comment. I think we are beginning to see some real shifts here.
Perhaps I can illustrate my answer by talking about a recent visit
to Manchester where I opened some new facilities for skills training.
Manchester is the city that I represent in this House and it is
a city where there is major economic development going on, a huge
amount of construction. What is happening in the prison there
now is that the kind of training, the workshops that are being
provided, are linked in exactly with the kinds of jobs that are
increasingly available in the construction industry outside. We
have involvement from the Learning and Skills Council, we have
got education providers coming in from outside, we have got employers
engaged in a whole new way of connecting those prisoners with
the real economy outside and trying to connect the two together.
Q513 Bob Russell: I am greatly encouraged
by that answer. I have just one further question. Will the prisoners
be able to gain recognised trade qualifications as part of that
training? Will they leave with a certificate showing that they
have an element of expertise and excellence in whatever skill
or trade that they have been doing?
Paul Goggins: Indeed, that is
essential. Where it can be gained during the period that they
are in prison it will be gained in that way but, going back to
your previous question, it is also important that if they are
not able to complete the qualification whilst they are in prison,
they are able to carry it on afterwards and complete the qualification
in that way. I might say one of the most encouraging little moments
in the last few months was when I went to Everthorpe Prison to
the finals of the bricklaying competition, which is a feature
of life in the Prison Service. I presented the prizes to people
who had achieved an outstanding level of skill and was joined
in giving out the prizes by the winner of last year's competition
who was now released from prison working as a bricklayer and earning
£750 a week. When he informed people of that, it was not
just the prisoners' eyes that went up to the sky, as you can well
imagine. That is a success story. You could see how that individual
inspired the prisoners he was speaking to. It is that kind of
aspiration that we need to build on.
Q514 Bob Russell: Again, a further
encouraging answer. Finally, Minister, when do you expect vocational
training and prison work will become an integral part of the Sentence
Planning Process, again as part of this joined-up holistic approach,
if I can use a word the Leader of the House will not allow me
to use?
Mr Narey: It was going to be this
year that we were going to bring vocational training and education
together. We decided to postpone for a year because most of our
money for education of offenders in the community is now routed
through the Learning and Skills Councils and prisons would have
stood alone in what would have been anachronism. We have delayed
it for a year. Next year we will bring in vocational training,
the old- fashioned skills courses, many of which need replacement
and renewal, as part of education so we bring together basic education
and trade training so we can really do everything necessary to
make people employable. I think making people employable is what
we should be about. Workshop experience can be very useful, but
there is not very much evidence that they teach anything like
a work ethic. What transforms people's job chances are getting
qualifications.
Q515 Chairman: Is it a possibility
that over the last 10 years the Prison Service broadly put too
many of its eggs in the basket of treatment programmes and Offending
Behaviour Programmes and not sufficient in developing a work ethic
and practical skills for employability?
Mr Narey: As you would expect
me to say, I do not think that is the case. We are more usually
criticised for putting all our eggs in the basket of education
where we have made the major investment. Investment in cognitive
skills programmes has risen over the years but this year we are
still only providing for about 8,000 prisoners through cognitive
skills programmes, many fewer than we are putting into education,
for example. It is not because I do not think that work can help
but I think one has to be realistic about it. I recall a few years
ago being referred to Wayland Prison, or the constituency, where
we had developed some very impressive work in food packaging,
won a major contract from a major British supermarket for food
packaging worth thousands of pounds to the prison, employing,
many, many workers but we had to withdraw that when the constituency
MP, quite understandably, became very irate at the prospect of
some of his constituents losing their jobs in a very similar industry.
One has to tread very carefully in terms of what we do in prison
industries and the effect it can have on the local economies.
Chairman: I could not possibly name my
colleague Chairman in another Select Committee in that context!
Q516 David Winnick: Last Thursday
we visited a prison near Woking, which will be known to you, where
the prisoners work as in a factory for 36 hours a week doing useful
engineering jobs and they are pretty well occupied during the
course of the day. How many other prisons have that regime?
Mr Narey: That is the only prison,
known as the industrial prison, which was built 30 years ago as
an industrial prison with a whole emphasis on engineering work.
Other prisons have a very significant amount of engineering work.
In Whitemoor Prison, for example, in the North East, about half
the prisoners are employed in making cell doors and windows and
so forth. That is the only one that is exclusively an industrial
prison, although even there we have worked hard over recent years
to make sure that industry is balanced by education and making
sure that people get some qualifications rather than simply go
to work.
Q517 David Winnick: The Internal
Review recommended that a 36 hour week should be applied in prisons
but, as you were saying, that is only prison that is doing it.
Mr Narey: It is very difficult
to get that sort of output. In any case, in recent years we have
tried to move away from measuring simply the input, the number
of hours that people might spend in purposeful activity or in
work, to try to measure real outputs. The KPRs which the Minister
has set for me this year are all about education and qualifications,
Drug Testing Treatment Order completions, rather than inputs,
real evidence of us achieving things which will make a difference
to people's future reoffending.
Q518 David Winnick: Minister, have
you visited that prison that we went to last week?
Paul Goggins: I have visited 36
prisons now, I think; I have not visited that one yet.
Q519 David Winnick: I appreciate
you visit prisons as part of your job, I do not dispute that for
one moment. May I put it to you, Minister, that just as I was
impressed, and I believe I am speaking for my colleagues who went
along, you too would be impressed. It does seem to me that, to
some extent at least, this should be a model of what prisoners
should be doing rather than wasting their time doing work that
will not help them in any way whatsoever when they return to civilian
life.
Paul Goggins: I shall certainly
take your advice and look for an early opportunity to visit that
particular prison. I visit a lot of prisons and I see a lot of
things that impress me in terms of work that is undertaken, in
terms of education that is undertaken and skills training. To
re-emphasise the point that Martin has made, of course it is a
good thing for people to be properly occupied, constructively
occupied whilst they are in prison, but, in terms of resettlement
and rehabilitation, what matters is that they develop the skills
and the qualifications and the connections to be able to move
into the world of work after they have been released and that
remains our main focus.
David Winnick: This is what is happening
in that particular prison.
1 Note by witness: Provisional figures for
the financial year 2003-04 show that around 770 prisoners were
transferred to secure mental hospitals. Back
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