Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
20 JULY 2004
MR JOHN
GIEVE CB, MR
MARTIN NAREY,
MR WILLIAM
NYE AND
MR BILL
JEFFREY
Q60 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: My questions are
focused, I suppose, initially on Martin Narey. Would you agree
that NOMS is the biggest government débâcle that
we have seen this year?
Mr Narey: Certainly not.
Q61 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Well, I would
like to share with you some of the evidence which we have received.
I spent the whole day with my Probation Service up in Merseyside
and to say that the announcement and the development of plans
was not a farce I think would only be disputed by you. Have you
informed your regional offices of the changes in NOMS which have
just been announced?
Mr Narey: I am informing them
at 2 o'clock this afternoon.
Q62 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: I see. I think
that is pretty typical actually of the approach which has been
conducted in relation to NOMS. Could you tell us where we are
now with this organisation and what it actually looks like?
Mr Narey: Well, I dispute your
comments about the way this was handled. Indeed I would say that
consultation about this initiative has been exemplary. I have
personally spoken to more than 3,000 staff in the last 10 weeks
all around the country, including Merseyside. We have had issued
two consultation documents. The announcement which my Minister,
Paul Goggins, made to Parliament this morning demonstrates how
much we have listened to the concerns of staff, and generally
speaking the initiative in bringing prisons and probation together
has been hugely welcomed.
Q63 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: But you were facing
a revolt from the probation staff?
Mr Narey: No, I do not think I
was.
Q64 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Well, that is
why I have been told that you were facing a revolt, because the
staff were totally demoralised with the way in which this particular
exercise had been conducted and whilst you did visit people, not
much information was provided and the level of confidence within
the Probation Service is at an all-time low as a result.
Mr Narey: I think the level of
confidence in some parts of the Probation Service is low. I do
not think that is a result of the changes we have planned and
I visited not just one area, but I visited 34 probation areas
in the last 16 months or so. For the last six months, every time
I visit a probation area I speak to a large number of staff. There
has been some anxiety about the structures, but the overall philosophy
behind what we are trying to do in the Offender Managing Service
about increasing effectiveness has been almost universally welcomed.
Q65 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: So today we face
no regional boards and the 42 areas are back in commission?
Mr Narey: We are facing the introduction
of regional offender managers, we are retaining as an interim
step the boards, but all the key things which we need in order
to make NOMS work, getting a grip on sentencing, introducing offender
management of people whether they are in prison or in the community
and progressing contestability, will all be delivered by the arrangements
which we are announcing to staff this afternoon.
Q66 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Well, I want to
talk to you later on about contestability. There was no consultation
before the announcement of NOMS. Why not?
Mr Narey: Because the Home Secretary
decided to give the earliest possible indication of the way he
wanted this development to be taken forward, but immediately we
went into consultation and we have issued two very long consultation
documents. I repeat about the number of staff I have spoken to,
that about 5% of all staff who work in prison and probation have
had a chance to question me personally about it, and we have demonstrated
in what we have announced today the extent to which we have listened.
Ministers' concern is to make sure that we reduce re-offending.
The way we have decided to move forward for the next two years
I believe will do that, but I do not think any member of staff
could say that they have not been listened to. Certainly with
the Probation Boards' Association and NAPO, with whom I discussed
this point last week, both said they were impressed by the extent
to which ministers had listened.
Q67 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: They also said
a number of other things, did they not? Would you not agree that
what you have actually done by not having consultation in advance
of the announcement of NOMS is to put the cart before the horse
and what you are trying to do now is put the horse back in front
of the cart so that you get better and better performance out
of the Probation Service?
Mr Narey: I am afraid I would
not agree with that in the least. I think the Home Secretary gave
a firm and necessary direction. I believe he was right. I believe
that trying to make a significant impact on reducing re-offending
with two separate services with the offenders being managed rather
than the services being managed was unlikely to be successful
and I believe we are setting out perhaps to do what a correction
service nowhere in the world has done which is to make a significant
and sustained impact on re-offending.
Q68 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: I would like to
get to the business case for the creation of NOMS. Where is it?
Mr Narey: There was a business
case in the Carter Report in terms of demonstrating that.
Q69 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: It was not actually
the business case.
Mr Narey: Well, if I may finish,
there was a general business case in the Carter Report demonstrating
that we could get much better value for money and much greater
effectiveness from making the new arrangements. The sophisticated
business case based on the outcome of the recent Spending Review
in terms of how we will make the organisation work is being developed
right now. It is dependent of course on knowing what money we
will have for the next three years and I will shortly know that.
Q70 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: So the business
case for NOMS is being made now?
Mr Narey: The Carter Report made
a very convincing general business case for why this was an important
development, demonstrating that we could make significant reductions
in the use of custody and we could make sentences more effective
by introducing different arrangements. On at least one of those
areas in terms of trying to get a bit of sense into sentencing,
we are making remarkable progress after just a few months.
Q71 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Well, you call
it a business case, I call it just a review actually. Has a risk
assessment been carried out of the proposals which you intend
to introduce?
Mr Narey: Yes, it has.
Q72 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: So where is that
then?
Mr Narey: We have started to conduct
a risk assessment immediately after I got the change team together
and I have just shared with ministers—
Q73 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: When was that?
Mr Narey: We started getting the
change team together in February and March.
Q74 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: So you have started
the risk assessment?
Mr Narey: We started work on risk
at that point, yes.
Q75 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: And the business
case has just been started?
Mr Narey: The detailed business
case which will be based on how much we spend of the money we
have over the next three years has already started, but it is
of course dependent on the money we get, but I am confident that
we will be able to make significant improvements in effectiveness.
Q76 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: The Government
are currently introducing a new sentencing regime, changes in
criminal legal aid and the new Supreme Court. Was now really the
best time to introduce changing the nature of the Prison and the
Probation Services as well?
Mr Narey: Many people have asked
me this question and I understand the rationale behind it. I think
if we had simply delayed gripping the issue, things would have
got worse. The reality is that the prison population was rocketing,
we were filling our prisons with people who should be on community
penalties, we have taken a grip of that and there is a good chance
that we now in the next few years might be able to direct investment
to where it will be most effective. That required a completely
different change of approach and I am quite sure, and I have been
in corrections for 22 years, and more confident than I have ever
been that we might actually make a success of changing people's
lives in a sustained manner.
Q77 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: If you had to
start this exercise again, would you do it any differently?
Mr Narey: In terms of the general
principles of bringing prisons and probation together, no.
Q78 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: What about a consultation
exercise with your staff?
Mr Narey: The consultation exercise
has been exemplary. I do not see how it can be suggested otherwise.
Q79 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: So you would do
it in the same way?
Mr Narey: In terms of consultation,
yes. I think what we consulted on was a possible model. We have
discussed that in detail with almost everybody who was concerned
with that and had all these roadshows. I have hardly been in the
Home Office for the last six months and at the end we brought
something forward which I expect will be warmly welcomed by most
people concerned with it. I think that is a demonstration of very
real consultation.
| 
