Select Committee on Home Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360 - 379)

TUESDAY 26 OCTOBER 2004

MS HAZEL BLEARS MP AND MR STEPHEN RIMMER

  Q360  David Winnick: Will disciplinary action be taken against those police officers who come out with the same sort of remarks if there are such police officers, which you accept however few they are—and let us hope they are few—but if they came out with the same sort of remarks as shown on the programme The Secret Policeman would they be disciplined?

  Ms Blears: Absolutely. The Association of Chief Police Officers has made that crystal clear; that there is no place for people with those attitudes in the service. They will be disciplined. Also, ACPO has taken the step of saying membership of the British National Party is inconsistent with being a police officer, in terms of carrying out their duties. We have introduced a really rigorous recruitment test that in 2003-04 has found 1,208 recruits who failed on the diversity element of that recruitment process; and despite the fact that they might have passed on every other element and are excellent, if they fail the diversity threshold they are out. There is no place for them in the police service, and we have excluded them.

  Q361  David Winnick: Are those people applying to join the police force actually asked, "are you a member of BNP?"

  Ms Blears: There are proposals now to introduce that into the application form. It is very recently that the chief officers have taken this decision to say it is inconsistent with being a police officer, and there are now proposals to put that in the application form so that people will be asked about that. In the course that they undergo, they are tested on their attitude to diversity in seven different situations, so it is a pretty rigorous test of their attitudes.

  David Winnick: On a policy of excluding fascism and racism from the police force in our country.

  Q362  Mr Clappison: I support you entirely on excluding the British National Party, but can you tell us a little more about what the diversity test means?

  Ms Blears: We try and have a range of situations for recruits to be placed in so that we are able to test their attitudes. My understanding is that it is not just about race; it is about attitudes to older people, people with disabilities, and attitude to gender. We want to make sure that we get recruits in the service who respect everybody with whom they are dealing, irrespective of where they come from and their gender, their disability and their sexual orientation, so that we have a good police force.

  Q363  Mr Clappison: Are they expected to demonstrate certain attitudes as part of that testing?

  Ms Blears: There is a test about how they deal with people and the nature of the encounters they would have with people. I have not personally sat through the assessment centre, so I am loath to give you the detail about the actual role-play. Much of it is role-play, which explores how you respond to particular situations.

  Q364  Chairman: Can you provide an outline of that? That would be useful.

  Ms Blears: Yes.[1]

  Q365  Mr Green: What question do they ask about BNP membership? Do they ask, "are you now a member?" or "have you ever been a member?"

  Ms Blears: I have not seen the question, but my understanding is that it will be: "Are you a member, or have you ever been a member of the British National Party?" because they are saying membership is incompatible with being a police officer.

  Mr Rimmer: To be clear, although this was ACPO policy, the Government has now put forward to the Police Advisory Board, which makes amendments to employment regulations, a specific proposition which the Board has accepted, to have a regulation barring anyone with membership not only of BNP but of similar organisations; so there is a fairly broad test in terms of inappropriate and racist organisations. That is being put into regulations because it could clearly be challenged in the courts. This is not now just ACPO policy, it is something we are proposing to put on a legal basis. It is BNP and similar organisations.

  Q366  David Winnick: We do not want Hitler lovers in the police service. The aim of the Home Office, Minister, is to have black and ethnic minority people within the service—a 7% target up to 2009. However, the Metropolitan Police Service considers that that target is totally unrealistic. What about more positive action in order to achieve the target?

  Ms Blears: First, let me make it clear that we have made significant progress in recent years, not just in terms of police officers but also police staff and support officers.

  Q367  David Winnick: When you say "significant progress", as I understand it the figure overall is 2.5%.

  Ms Blears: 3.3%, but in the last year we have doubled the number of recruits from minority ethnic communities. I entirely accept that the numbers are far too low, but they were, dare I say it, even lower until fairly recently. We are making some progress.

  Q368  David Winnick: I am sorry to interrupt! Your fluency is excellent, Minister, but we have to pause—and that is praise not criticism. Is the target set by the Home Secretary going to be reached by 2009?

  Ms Blears: All I wanted to just make clear was that for the majority of forces, they will meet their targets. The Met has a specific problem because it is such a large force, and the distance for it to travel is so much greater. I am conscious of that. If they were going to be on trajectory to meet their target, they would have got 4% this year—I hate to say these words, on trajectory to meet target. They narrowly missed that and were at 3.3% this year.[2] I am increasingly conscious that I do not want to set them completely impossible targets, because if targets are going to be useful, they should be realistic but stretching. I think we should have another look at the targets we have; but that does not mean for one moment that I think we should not really keep the pressure on here, because it is an overwhelming imperative that our police service should be representative of the community that we serve. The Met does some good work, but I do not want to have a target that is so unrealistic that it undermines their commitment to wanting to press on. That is a fairly complex position to be in. Also, I do not want to just have a target that is not going to be met and everything is a failure, because we are making significant progress. If you look at the numbers of support officers in London, half of them are from ethnic minority communities. That is not a panacea, but quite a lot of them will transfer into a regular service, so it is another route through. The second issue I have asked them to look at is how we go and recruit for what is called genuine occupational qualifications under the race relations legislation. If people need a particular language in order to talk to their community, we can press on with that, but at the moment I am not convinced of the desirability of moving towards a change in the law that would provide for quotas, for positive discrimination. I do not think the National Black Police Association are convinced of that either. Certainly—


  Q369  David Winnick: They are, Minister, because as I understand it—and you will obviously correct me if the organisation has changed its mind—the information I have is that the National Black Police Force Association has proposed alternative action. Are you rejecting that outright?

  Ms Blears: No, there is a difference between affirmative action and positive discrimination. We have been trying in the service to positively go out and encourage people to apply. For example, in Birmingham they have a double-decker bus that goes out to some of the communities where people from a whole range of different ethnic backgrounds are living, and a real recruitment drive. The Met has had a couple of big recruitment fairs, particularly led by people from a range of communities who are Met police officers, going out and encouraging people that they live and work with to come into the service. All of that positive action is going on, and it is bearing fruit because we are getting more and more people coming through. There is then another big step, moving from positive action into positive discrimination, which would require a change in the national law and would then take us into the realm of quotas of people being awarded positions on that basis. That is hugely controversial. The National Black Police Association said we should have a debate, but they are not convinced that quotas are the right route to go for, because they clearly want people who come into the service to be respected on their merit in terms of the contribution they make.

  Q370  David Winnick: However much one talks about the difference between positive action and affirmative action—and there are differences—at the end of it all there does seem to be a difference between the views of the Police Federation and the National Black Police Association as to how far action can be taken, either by targets as now, or more firmer action, whichever words one wants to use. If, at the end of the day, it is clear that the targets are not going to be met, either in the Met or outside, particularly in places like London and Manchester, where there is a sizeable black community—and in some boroughs in London it is no longer a minority—would the Government consider the possibility of taking action along the lines that have been sometimes advocated—be it positive action or affirmative action—a change in the law in effect?

  Ms Blears: At this stage we want to explore whether or not we have really used the existing legislation to its best effect. Have we taken every single step we can within the limits of the legislation? I am not satisfied that we have done everything we can. That is why I have asked them to explore things like language. Are there attributes people have so that we can draw them through the service? What can we do to support people who are already in so they do not leave more quickly—because quite a number from ethnic minority backgrounds leave after their first couple of years' service? What is going wrong there? We should have proper exit interviews with them. They should have mentoring, buddying, and support through the service. There is more than we can do before we get into the realms—which has huge difficulty—about positive discrimination, rather than that extra action to recruit people and support them through the service. At the moment I am not convinced we have to be in a position of changing the law.

  Q371  Mrs Dean: Minister, what assessments have been made of the career break system for police officers?

  Ms Blears: At the moment there are 776 people on career breaks. It has been a policy approved and taken through the various machinery that we have for this kind of thing. I understand it is only one person of chief superintendent or above who is on a career break; so the vast majority of police officers are police constables. They can have a career break for up to five years. They are not paid during that career break, but their rank and their pay point is preserved for them for when they come back to the service. As far as I know, the system is working pretty well. It provides people with the ability to go and get other experience. Quite a lot of the career breaks are in the Met in London, clearly because of the size of their force and the opportunities open to them. The vast majority of the 776 are police constables.

  Q372  Mrs Dean: What systems are in place to keep officers up to date with the new developments whilst on those breaks?

  Ms Blears: Clearly this is a matter for the chief constables, because they are responsible for managing them. They can get refresher training and keep up to date with some of the science and technology that is coming along so that they can make a contribution when they come back into the force. It is a matter for the chief constables to manage the career break in an appropriate way. They are responsible to make sure they are available to give evidence—as I understand that might have been a cause of concern to the Committee—and making sure that their absence does not have a damaging effect on the operation of the force in general. You make a very important point, Mrs Dean, about refresher training and making sure people keep up to date. We invest a lot of money in training our police officers, and we want to make sure that that investment is not wasted.

  Q373  Mrs Dean: Has it been successful in keeping people in the police force?

  Ms Blears: I do not have details of a specific evaluation of the 776 career breaks that we have had so far. If I can find out any further information, I will gladly send that to you.[3]

  Q374  Bob Russell: Why has the Government announced the recruitment of a further 20,000 community support officers before completion of a proper evaluation of the effectiveness of the first 4,000?

  Ms Blears: Let me say that there has been a number of evaluations of the introduction of community support officers. In fact, we have had 27 local evaluations of their impact in the forces where they were initially recruited. That has shown us overwhelmingly that they are popular with the public, and also that they are having a significant impact on reassurance and the job they were initially designed to do, which was being out there and a visible uniformed presence patrolling the streets. Interestingly, with the introduction of the national reassurance policing pilots we have had in the last year or so, we have begun to get some more evidence of the impact of police community support officers. The reassurance pilots are in 16 areas up and down the country. It is a new way of policing and very much about neighbourhoods, communities, engaging local people, the panels—getting local people to set their priorities. I visited a whole range of those pilots, and many of them are neighbourhood teams of police officers and PCSOs. It is interesting that in Leeds city centre, when they introduced the PCSOs, robbery came down by 47%, so that physical reassurance on the street was important. Vehicle crime came down by 31%. I am not saying that all of that is attributed to the PCSOs, but it happened when they were deployed on the streets of Leeds as part of that reassurance. Similarly, we have a number of reassurance pilots in the Met district. I visited Enfield and I have been out to Bexley, and something like 60% of residents felt safer in the areas where community support officers had been introduced. In addition to the local evaluations, we now have a national evaluation underway. We will have an interim report by December of this year and a full report by next summer. It is a very extensive evaluation, looking at surveys before and after, and looking at the impact. It is a big cohort. I just think that the introduction of community support officers has been hugely welcomed out there, on the ground and in the streets. They are doing an excellent job, and very, very often they are doing it together with their police officer colleagues. It is this combination that is so valuable to us.

  Q375  Bob Russell: Do you regard therefore police community support officers as being an integral part of the uniformed police family?

  Ms Blears: Yes, I do. When community support officers came in—and you, Mr Chairman, were hugely instrumental in taking that—I could say brave and courageous step, but brave and courageous in political terms has certain connotations!

  Q376  David Winnick: That will bring him back into government.

  Ms Blears: At that time it was quite a departure from a traditional way of looking at policing in this country. I have said, and the Home Secretary has said that they are here to stay. They are doing a good job. We want to make sure they have powers commensurate with the job we are asking them to do, which is primarily to tackle low-level anti-social behaviour, and provide a visible presence. I see them very much as part of the extended police family, together with some of the wardens operating in our communities, and the civilians who are releasing our officers to do their jobs on the front line. This is about getting a proper range of skill mix in the service so that the officers who are fully warranted and who have the whole set of powers are able to be released to do some of the things that only they can do.

  Q377  Bob Russell: Why then do you think the Police Federation have not embraced them into their membership, to the extent that I understand some community support officers are seeking membership of trade unions—the Transport & General Workers' Union—and so on?

  Ms Blears: At the moment the community support officers are classed as police staff and they are therefore eligible to join the trade unions, and many of them are in Unison. That is a really good thing, that they are being represented. We think that working with the trade unions and the Police Federation is a very important part of how we run our business, so I am delighted that they are represented by a whole range of trade unions, including the T&G. In terms of the Federation's approach to CSOs, when we introduce any big change in any organisation, inevitably there is some concern and sometimes resistance. People want to know what they will be doing—"will they be diluting my role; will they be trespassing on the things that I do?" This is about managing change, reassuring the police officers that rather than undermining them, they are there to help them. As I say, my experience is that PCs and sergeants in many cases wonder now how they managed without them because they have really been absorbed into the team. The Fed are now doing their focus groups, looking at CSOs, and Mrs Berry in her evidence said that she thought the CSOs were doing a useful job in terms of the patrolling that they were out there to do. It takes time for people to feel comfortable with something that is a radically different step—but I am sure we will get there.

  Q378  Bob Russell: Minister, what is your response to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabularies recent report of a future strategy for the civilianisation? How much scope is there for a unified system of pay and conditions within the police service?

  Ms Blears: What we want to try and do with our police reform process is to get a more unified service as far as we can. At the moment we have a very, very strict demarcation between police officers and other people, and that does not just apply to their pay and conditions; it has also in the past applied to access to training and qualifications. The very fact that they were called civilians painted a picture for us that there were uniformed staff and civilians. They then went from being civilians to being support staff, so again they were seen as not quite second rate but in a subservient role. Now they are police staff, and I am delighted about that because I want to see the police staff having access to senior leadership roles and proper career pathways, personal development, training and qualifications, and being valued as a really important part of our system. Valuing one part of the system does not mean you devalue the other part of the system, and that is what we all have to learn; that valuing the CSO is not devaluing the police officer in the same police staff. We are all trying to do the same thing, which is to fight crime and make our communities safer places for people to live.

  Q379  Mr Singh: Minister, science and technology is going to be hugely important in the fight against crime. What are the Government's priorities for science and technology in terms of policing?

  Ms Blears: We have our first ever science and technology strategy now, so it is good for government to start with a strategy, is it not? The challenge is to make something happen from it. There are three priorities for us. In fact I have a copy here. There are three big issues for us. The first one is being aware of the nature of the threats that face us, both in terms of criminology but also terrorism, and making sure we are fit to respond to that; and secondly making sure that we use intelligence in a proper way. It reaffirms what I was saying before about turning the service into a service that anticipates problems—horizon scanning—sees what the next thing is that is coming. A huge driver behind street crime was the introduction of mobile phones. Something like half of all our robberies involve a phone, and something like a third of them were phone only. We have to think of the next thing the criminal wants to acquire. Is it the laptop or the DVD or portable player? We constantly need to be thinking ahead, so it is a matter of using that intelligence. The third thing we have to do is make sure that we share information in a better way, and I think that is now an overwhelming priority for the service, whether in terms of Bichard or at a local level. Those are our things, but the practicalities are making use of our DNA database in a better way. We now have 2.5 million entries on the database, including my own. Again, where we make matches with crime scenes, then our detection rates go up dramatically. We have to make sure we make use of the livescan fingerprint units. We have 198 of those in forces up and down the country, where you can get immediate results from fingerprint scans, and a  video ID. ANPR, automatic number-plate recognition was piloted in a number of forces, and we are about to roll that out nation-wide, using the netted off parts of some of our speeding fines and traffic measures in there. If you look at ANPR, the arrest rate is something like 10 times what it would be for an officer not using ANPR. This is smart, intelligent policing. You can see I am excited by it, because it means the police are using the tools at their disposal to make a significant extra impact. We are on the road now with science and technology and have to press on with this. For DNA we are one of the best in the world. Sometimes we follow America for lots of things, but actually we have a better DNA database than anything they have got out there. They come to look at ours, which I think is great.


1   See Ev 200-201 Back

2   Note by witness: The police service strength target of 4% for minority ethnic police officers was narrowly missed at 3.3%. Minority ethnic police officer strength in the MPS stands at 6.6% Back

3   See Ev 201 Back


 
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