Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260-279)
21 DECEMBER 2004
MR PHILIP
DOYLE, MR
STEPHEN GREEN,
PROFESSOR DICK
HOBBS, MR
JOHN HUTSON
AND MS
CLARE EAMES
Q260 Chairman: The critical thing is
how much alcohol people actually consume.
Mr Hutson: I appreciate that.
Q261 Chairman: As a company you do not
know how you derive not all but part of your profits.
Mr Hutson: We can find that out.[2]
Q262 Mrs Dean: Representing Burton on
Trent, the capital of ruin with several breweries and pub companies,
my constituents rely on the production of alcohol and the distribution
for many jobs. They would also tell me in my constituency that
they are amongst those who try to be responsible over the sale
of alcohol. You have just mentioned those who have offers and
one of the things you were saying I think, perhaps Mr Hutson was
saying, was there is a difference between offering reasonably
priced drinks and offering offers which encourage people to binge
drink and have three drinks instead of one. Is there a way of
stopping that, leaving aside minimum prices, of actually clamping
down on those who do give those irresponsible offers?
Mr Green: I would have thought
that it ought to be possible, again if the local authority has
the power to put conditions on that, to say one drink has to have
one price. You would have thought it would be possible to conceive
of that. Certainly, I think that would help. Regardless of that,
for as long as there is competition on prices then the natural
consequence of competition is that prices go down and in a situation
where there is over-provision then there is an even greater pressure
for the prices to go down. It would solve part of the problem,
in my opinion, but not the whole of the problem.
Mrs Dean: When answering questions earlier
about trying to tackle alcohol abuse—I have lost the thread.
Chairman: You can come back later. Marsha
Singh?
Q263 Mr Singh: Professor Hobbs, you had
a fair go at the Licensing Act 2003, but there is no evidence
at all to suggest that things will get worse by introducing 24
hour drinking, is there?
Professor Hobbs: There is no evidence
that it will improve things either and that is supposed to be
the task of an Act.
Q264 Mr Singh: If we focus away from
city centre problems to the general drinking public whose style
of drinking and whose desire to drink has changed over time, who
do not want to finish drinking at 11 o'clock, who might want to
drink until 12 o'clock or one o'clock, responsible drinks in their
own locals, in their own communities with their own friends, do
you not think that the Licensing Act is positive?
Professor Hobbs: You can do that
now. We have got in our book the statistics that show the amount
of late licences which has been awarded now. It is a myth to think
that you have to stop drinking at 11 o'clock, it is not 1975 any
more. If you want a drink in a city centre now, you can have a
drink in a city centre at twelve, one, one-thirty, two o'clock,
that is not a problem at all. Currently we do have the legal resources
to provide facilities for those who wish to have an alcoholic
drink way past the 11 o'clock margin.
Mr Hutson: I just want to say
that it is absolutely not the case that anyone can drink. There
are a lot of late licences but let us be clear that to obtain
a licence in England or Wales to serve alcohol beyond 11pm on
ordinary alcoholic premises, you have to provide music and entertainment.
Almost by definition, late night premises are given over to loud
music, and it has to be loud because it has to encourage people
to dance. You might not live in a town centre and if you fancy
having a pint of cask ale beyond 11 o'clock, to do that legally
is very, very difficult, if not impossible.
Q265 Mr Singh: In fact, what happens
is that landlords lock the doors, do they not, up and down the
country? They lock the doors for the regulars, risking criminalising
themselves and decent ordinary folk who like a drink after 11
o'clock.
Professor Hobbs: I take your point.
I would just like to come back to the issue of music and entertainment.
I know of many places where the music is not loud where you can
get a drink, you can even get cask ale, beyond 11 o'clock. It
is not 1975, the resources do exist. I think you have got a point
about areas that are outside the city centres, and we are concentrating
on city centres at the moment. I think the liberalisation of our
licensing laws is quite reasonable, but when they are liberalised
in these city centre spaces that we are talking about now, all
evidence shows that undoubtedly leads to problems. The sort of
people you are talking about will tend not to go into the city
centre. Yes, I think you do have a point, there is a market there
and maybe the Licensing Act can assist people with that market.
Mr Green: I think you have got
a point to an extent, if I may say so. Yes, lock-ins do happen,
we all know that, and by and large they do not cause anybody any
great problem. I think there is a difference between a selective
few having a lock-in and sneaking off in the early hours of the
morning and extending the hours of licensed premises in residential
areas on a systematic basis. To many people who live in streets
or areas where there is a pub in close proximity, they welcome
the fact that by and large between 11 and half past, most people
go home and they have got peace. We must not under-estimate the
fact that, yes, we could provide a more liberal regime for people
in those suburban and village pubs but we have to take account
of the needs of the residents as well. If they have not got the
guarantee that this is all going to end at 11 o'clock, then they
have to have some guarantee about when they can get their quality
of life back because even the most well ordered and sensible drinker,
when they walk out of a pub, does not realise how loud they are.
We just need to be careful around the fact that, yes, it would
cause less problems but not no problems because there are the
needs of residents as well.
Q266 Mr Singh: I accept that point entirely,
but if a landlord is irresponsible, now you have the powers to
make them responsible.
Mr Green: Quite so and I do take
that point.
Professor Hobbs: I think one the
issues, which has not been mentioned yet, is the size of the venues.
The size of the venues we are talking about that have been opened
up are absolutely vast compared with the old kind of suburban
or village pub. The venue that I mentioned earlier in my hometown
of Durham has 800 people coming out onto the streets at 1:30,
and now I think it is 2 o'clock, but it is 800 people that were
not on the streets previously and are now going to be on the streets
from one venue alone. That is 800 people looking for a cab, pizza,
kebab or a urinal and it is that kind of problem. If you are talking
about a village pub or a suburban pub that might hold 100 people,
and only a fraction of those will want to drink until midnight
on a Friday night at the end of their working week, it is not
going to create the kinds of problems of disorder or, indeed,
demands for services that the city centre pubs are making.
Mr Green: If I may, I think there
is almost a different community of licensees in the suburbs and
the villages because what you do not tend to see in those areas
are the kind of revolving door on the front door as licensees
come in and go out in quick succession. Most licensees tend to
be longer standing and, perhaps, have a different business relationship
with the ultimate owner of the business and some of the people
in the towns and the city centres. I sense that there are two
completely different communities of the licensing industry: that
which sits outside the town or city centre and that which sits
inside.
Q267 Mr Singh: This might be an unfair
question to you, given how you describe how Wetherspoon's operates,
but do you feel we can condone any longer the alcohol industry
targeting young people to drink ever more, whether that is by
the use of TV, magazines or whatever? Can we condone that any
longer?
Mr Hutson: No, I do not think
that. If there is a perception, in fact, if, through research
or other means, it is concluded that the licensed industry, in
general, is targeting underage customers or overtly young customers,
then something should be done about that. I feel there is a very
general question about the whole industry. As I said previously,
a lot of our own efforts have been centred on promoting drinks
across a whole spectrum, non-alcoholic and alcoholic, food as
well as drink and so on, advertising a broad offer, in effect
advertising premises and the hope of a nice evening out with your
friends and family, whatever it might be, as opposed to a specific
segment of the population for specific products. I think groups,
such as the Portman Group, have made tremendous strides in the
way that alcoholic products are marketed, promoted and even down
to approving labels. For example, we have become an associate
member of the Portman Group. I think we are only one of two or
three pub companies who have joined in with the Portman Group.
For example, in April of this year, one of their recommendations
was that cocktails should not be sold with more than four shots
of alcohol in them. Cocktails are shared, but because of the possibility
that one person might buy that sharing cocktail and consume it
themselves, we have reduced our cocktail pitchers from six to
four on the advice of Portman. In general, I think the industry
agrees and is trying to make positive moves in that regard, so
it is not perceived to be an industry wanting to sell alcohol
to young or underage customers.
Q268 Mr Singh: Professor Hobbs, do you
have any evidence that the industry is targeting young people
where they may be even underage?
Professor Hobbs: The example of
alcopops has been brought up and there has been numerous battles
concerning the moral high ground of alcopops over the last ten
years. One of the issues here, when we consider the target market
for alcohol, is the growth of the high street chains. Often these
high street chains have young managers in them who have incredibly
strict and tight targets to hit. If the market is young people
anyway and they are the ones who are coming into the city centre
on a Friday and Saturday night, increasingly through the rest
of week, then that is the market they are after, they are not
after the cask ale drinker. Of course, Wetherspoon's have got
that market, very much so, and generally speaking, they target
it very successfully, the older drinker. Most of the chains are
managed by young managers with very, very tight targets to hit
and they have to hit those targets any way they can within the
law. I think that has been the change, it is not the old established
licensee running one venue that has been there a long time, he
knows the locals, he knows the troublemakers and he knows the
local Bobby on the beat, et cetera et cetera, that has gone, these
are corporate chains and they have got targets there.
Q269 Chairman: Mr Hutson, do your managers
have targets to hit?
Mr Hutson: I think anyone in retail
has targets to hit. Our managers have sales budgets for their
pubs.
Q270 Chairman: So Mr Hobb's remarks would
apply to your business too? Is that a problem?
Mr Hutson: I have to say, I do
not think it is a new phenomenon. The previous company I worked
for was Allied Lyons and I joined it in 1987. Managers there had
the same sales and profit targets. I think since companies have
run pubs, every pub has had a target to achieve, it is not a new
phenomenon.
Q271 Mr Singh: Has anybody got any other
comments on that?
Mr Green: I was just getting my
leaflets out again and they have a specific reference to friendly
student nights. To me, just the language "bring a buddy"
shows that none of it is targeted at people of my age, it is all
about young people.
Q272 Mr Singh: It is a shame really because
you could afford to spend more even in those bars.
Mr Green: You might think that
but I could not possibly comment. There has been a problem with
regard to underage drinking and the police activity around it
because the only effective tactic is test purchase and that is
the only way to get into underage drinking. The guidance was interpreted
by the Police Service as meaning that any test purchase operation
involving drinking underage was covered by the Regulation and
Investigatory Powers Act and all the bureaucracy that goes with
it. The disincentive was getting involved with it, we tended to
leave it to the trading standards officers in local authorities
who have a limited resource base. Now, there has been a clarification
of that interpretation in the last couple of weeks, and the police
forces now know that they can go and do test purchase for underage
drinking without all the bureaucracy that goes with it. We secured
some volunteer air cadets last Saturday night to go and test the
market. They went into 18 separate premises in Nottingham City
centre, not late at night, between 7:30 and 10 o'clock, so it
was not the busiest time, and they got served in ten of those
18 premises. I have to say we found that quite shocking, but that
does give you a feel for the level of problems of underage drinking.
Q273 Chairman: How old would they have
been?
Mr Green: Fifteen and 16.
Chairman: Well underage.
Q274 Mr Singh: The problem is not only
with pubs and bars, is it? While we are talking about test purchases,
one of the most notable findings of the recent Summer Alcohol
Misuse Enforcement Campaign—a bit of a mouthful—was
the number of successful test purchases. They found that 45% of
on-licences and 31% of off-licences were serving minors. Do these
figures come as a surprise to you or is selling alcohol to minors
prevalent?
Mr Green: I think it is prevalent.
I was heavily involved in the Summer Campaign and in the latest
campaign that has just started. You could say, "Well, you
only went to the places where you thought you would get served",
and I am sure there was an element of that because test purchase
is so expensive to do that you want to make sure you maximize
it. Certainly, my sense in Nottingham, which is now reinforced
by what we did last Saturday night, is that if we had put more
into it, we would have got more results. I think that is what
needs to happen now—and the Home Office quite helpfully
clarified the legal position for us—and, personally, I would
welcome some very active urgings from the Home Office about police
forces getting more involved in test purchase now that the chains
have been taken off them because I think the more we look for,
the more we are going to find.
Q275 Mr Singh: You can close down a bar
if there are problems associated with it for 24 hours, can you
not?
Mr Green: Not yet, but that is
the intention.
Q276 Mr Singh: Will you be able to close
down a bar or an off-licence if they have been serving minors?
Mr Green: Sorry, yes. That was
the announcement that the Prime Minister made about two weeks
ago when he said his intention is to change the law to legislate
to do that. What we have got to do now—not to show too much
of my hand—is we have got to be more systematic because
to go to a bar and test purchase once and prove that one member
of staff sold to someone underage is of itself shocking but what
we need to start doing is to systematically check because if you
do it over and over again you should lose your licence. That is
the point I was making, that we need to urge all Chief Constables,
it seems to me, (a) to take the problem seriously, because the
figures would show that there is a significant problem, and (b)
actually to put more effort into proving that these are not just
one-offs, that this is a systematic failing on the part of these
bars to regulate their premises properly.
Professor Hobbs: We need to highlight
the kind of environment that young and underage drinkers are going
into to make these purchases. There is a lot of loud music, they
are dark, there are flashing lights, often dry ice floating around,
there is a huge scrum at the bar, it is difficult to get served
and people are shouting out their orders. I feel it is very, very
difficult for young, stressed bar staff who have been working
for maybe three or four hours to make that snap decision: is that
person 16-17 or 18? Speaking as the father of two teenage sons
who stand six foot three and six foot four, at times I am not
so sure how old they are! These are difficult decisions to be
made. That is not to let the alcohol industry off the hook.
Q277 Mr Singh: I accept that, but is
it not their responsibility to make the environment such that
they can tell, and have a reasonable chance of telling, who is
underage?
Professor Hobbs: Yes, I agree.
As it stands at the moment, the environment is very, very difficult
to make all kinds of judgments as to whether people are underage,
whether they have been drinking or not, in fact I would say it
is virtually impossible to make those kinds of decisions as things
stand at the moment.
Q278 Mr Singh: These new powers to close
premises down for 24 hours, do you think these are going to be
helpful?
Mr Doyle: I do. I think they are
extremely helpful. I think one of the best things about the Licensing
Act 2003 is its powers of review. Presently, the powers that local
authorities and courts have are either to allow somebody to continue
trading or to take their licence away. The Licensing Act 2003
allows a much more flexible approach depending on the problem
that is revealed and also allows time to negotiate with the licensee
to try to find a solution.
Q279 Mrs Dean: This is to Mr Hutson,
and I am sorry to put you on the spot again. Could you tell us
in some detail how you make sure that your staff are not selling
alcohol to minors? If you find any staff who are doing so, what
action do you take?
Mr Hutson: Obviously all of our
staff are trained. The people serving at the bar, which is where
the criminality can take place, before they are allowed to serve
have to go through in-house training, one of which is the licensing
laws. It is made clear to our staff that it is their responsibility,
it is not their line manager or their supervisor, it is them.
If they serve and they do not think they should be serving, then
do not serve and refer it. In terms of our training, we are quite
clear that it starts there and works its way through to our managers
and we show absolutely no support if a manager is found to be
wilfully serving underage customers because we have got no interest
in breaking the law. The point, and it is a point that has been
made by the Summer Campaign mentioned here, is that it is difficult
and perhaps the industry has underestimated how difficult the
issue is to deal with, particularly at peak times. I do not think
it is a new issue. Some of the figures where maybe 45% of all
on-licence premises were found to be serving underage, it seems
rather high to me and it is not my perception, but I am not going
to argue the facts if they are the facts. Clearly it is something
that the industry, in conjunction with the local authority and
the police together, has to work harder at. One of the things
we have done in our company since the beginning of the summer,
and we have now rolled it out into every pub, is we have joined
this campaign, which is in Westminster, actually, of ID-ing them
under 21, so rather than "Are you under 18?" it is "Are
you under 21 and if you are we are going to ID you", just
to help a little bit. It is an issue that the licensed industry
has always had to deal with and, if anything, with the figures
that have come out since this summer it is a case of saying that
we need to try a little bit harder.
2 Note by Witness: Find outlined below our research
findings from the focus group research we conducted in Lloyds
in April 2004 in Croydon and Manchester. The average frequency
of visiting pubs/bars is twice per week, at least one of these
is at the weekend. On Friday and Saturday evenings the tendency
is for customers to drink more "upmarket"/expensive
drinks such as cocktails, wine and premium lagers. The average
spend per evening in Lloyds is between £9 an £11 (females
and males respectively); thus the number of units per evening
would be estimated as between 3 and 4 units per evening in a Lloyds. Back
|
