Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 286)
MONDAY 26 APRIL 2004
ASSISTANT CHIEF
CONSTABLE DUNCAN
MCCAUSLAND,
CHIEF SUPERINTENDENT
SEAMUS HAMILL
AND INSPECTOR
AMANDA COOKE
Q280 Mark Tami: I think in football
matches you also just charge the home team, do you not? There
could be some arguments about exactly who that may or may not
be. With those proposals, particularly on marshalling, have you
spoken to the Northern Ireland Office about that and, if so, what
has been their response to your proposals?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
I think in terms of the actual aspect of trained marshals, we
have put into our submission the need for trained marshals. We
have emphasised, also, the issue of trained marshals, I think
it is reflected in the codes of practice that are being issued
to organisers, the issue of trained marshals. It is an aspect
that really in terms of a developing approach we have pushed very
strongly to the Northern Ireland Office, that we would be keen
to explore this and emphasise it, and it is not just in this area
of parades, it has been used in a number of other areas very successfully.
Q281 Mr Clarke: Conduct of parades
obviously varies. In evidence that has been presented to us one
of the criticisms is of bands sometimes that attach themselves
to parades or were not expected or seem unable or unwilling to
listen to the conditions that have been set down on a parade.
Do you share the concerns which have been raised to us about the
conduct of individual bands within parades?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
Yes, Chairman. In the vast majority of cases the issue of bad
behaviour is associated in terms of parading around the control
of bands and their followers. These bodies organising parades
are generally very good at controlling their members and dealing
with any misconduct, that is the actual parade organisers themselves
and the bodies parading. Bands which have behaved particularly
badly and come to the notice of the police and the Parades Commission
in some instances have been disbanded, although the problem is
individual members are then free to join other bands. Identifying
an officer of a band has proved particularly difficult and as
a consequence has led to difficulties when trying to identify
people for prosecutions. Operationally it is extremely difficult
for police to take immediate action, as I hope the Committee would
appreciate, during the progress of a parade against identified
bad behaviour, in particular the bands. Our tactic has been to
gather the evidence and to pursue alleged offenders after events
have passed. It is during these subsequent inquiries that identifying
specific individuals who have responsibility for the bands has
proved difficult, and that is the point I made earlier. We would
welcome a registration scheme for band members. It would need
to be set in legislation and could be linked to the proposals
Sir George made in relation to the compliance branch. It would
deal with breaches of the codes of conduct and have a system of
fining or gathering other penalties for certain breaches. The
marching orders also need to be more careful about the bands they
employ to accompany them on their parades and when a person signs
their name as parade organiser they must be aware of the responsibility
they are undertaking. In some instances, especially in band parades,
for example, the most junior member of the band is given the responsibility
of completing the application form and submitting it to the police.
This junior member may not be, in effect, the real organiser but
would be the person subject to any subsequent investigation, and
that is why we would be keen on some form of registration scheme
for the bands to both help police the parade but also help the
organisers in deciding which bands they would select to parade
with them.
Q282 Chairman: You go along entirely
with Quigley recommendation?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
In relation to that, when we talk about a registration scheme,
the band, for example, would be registered under its name and
title, we would clearly know who the person in charge is and the
band leader must be identified. We would be saying that the band
leader is the person who would be held responsible for the behaviour
of the band or for identifying others if required. The band leader
must keep a register of the individuals who are members of the
band and this register must be kept up to date and could be examined
internally by the compliance branch of the Commission. We feel
a system of penalty points or fines could be imposed by the compliance
branch for breaches of the code of conduct and that would help
organisers when deciding which band they wanted to select.
Q283 Mr Clarke: Just to be absolutely
clear, we have just been discussing penalty points and fines.
Are you supporting a scheme whereby if a registered band continued
to cause disruption that registration would be removed?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
Yes, Chairman.
Q284 Chairman: All of this requires
more legislation, does it not?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
Regrettably so, Chairman, yes.
Chairman: Has any other
Member got any supplementary questions?
Q285 Mr Beggs: Would you agree that
those bands that cause offence in one way or another are very
much a small minority, probably less than 5%, and that the real
difficulty arises when organisers of parades decide to exclude
a particular band because it had brought into disrepute the organisation
that had previously invited it to participate, that it is too
easy for a band to drop its name and for the individuals previously
associated with it to reform and resume under another name and
that is the issue that has got to be addressed?
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
We would totally agree with that. As I said earlier, it is far
too easy. Mr Beggs is right, band members can move between bands
very simply. The bands can change their name and there is difficulty
in relation to tracing a band that causes a problem. What we can
have is a band which was a problem band at one parade in effect
reforming under a different name and reappearing, and it can do
this, and the individuals in effect are very difficult to trace.
That is why we propose a registration scheme.
Q286 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed, Mr McCausland. You may have had a brief appearance in
front of us but it has been very useful and we have got a lot
on the record that we needed to. We are very grateful to you for
coming.
Assistant Chief Constable McCausland:
Thank you, Chairman.
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