Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-252)
MRS JANET
HUNTER
21 FEBRUARY 2005
Q240 Mr Beggs: Who should be responsible
for acknowledging the suffering of victims? The perpetrators or
government?
Mrs Hunter: I would say the perpetrators
at my end of things, and the perpetrators will say government
and their end of things. Down the middle? It would be up to the
individual as to who they see as responsible. To me I would say
the IRA would be responsible for my family's grief and the grief
of quite a few families within the organisation. Paramilitaries
I would say are the ones that should be held responsible, far
more than government.
Q241 Mr Beggs: Would an apology from
the perpetrators help you to deal with closure of the past?
Mrs Hunter: The best apology they
could give me is never again to pick up a gun, bullet or harm
another human being in this Province.
Q242 Mr Campbell: You have been very
candid in your answers. Setting aside the issue of money, do you
think it would be a productive move if the government were to
open up a series of inquiries or a super inquiry into all the
deaths, including the one which affected you?
Mrs Hunter: Joseph has just been
investigated and I thought very hard for a lot of years and it
was satisfactory that his case was re-looked at and it did really
help the family. It did not give us the conclusion that we thought
it might come to but it still gave us the feeling that the police
and the government cared enough to investigate it, so I do feel
that each investigation should be re-looked at. In our situation
there was a lot of forensics that were found but the investigation
team had to go to a lot of different police stations all over
Northern Ireland to get all the evidence in Joseph's case, and
that is only one case, so if all the forensics and evidence are
all over different police stations across the Province that needs
to be brought together. Everybody's individual case needs to be
looked at and all of the evidence for each case needs to be brought
into one place so that it can be looked at. One of the guns that
killed Joseph was destroyed shortly afterwards by mistake because
it was involved in another murder. The person went to prison for
that murder and the gun was no longer needed so it was destroyed.
It was part of the evidence that was needed for Joseph's case.
I do feel that if anything comes out of the investigations it
should be that all of the materials that are going to be needed
should be brought together, because these cases are not going
to be closed overnight. Joseph's case is still open even though
it has been re-investigated. That investigation gave us that enlightenment
and the satisfaction that it was worked through to the very end.
If that happened for every family it would give some sort of closure
or the hope that some day the political powers would allow arrests
in these cases. We know now that Joseph's case is sitting waiting
and it will only take a small amount of evidence and the people
will be caught, but even if that never happens we have still got
that satisfaction to know that all of Joseph's belongings, all
of his evidence, are in one place now and we know that it is safer
and if anything happens the case will be closed at some point.
Q243 Mr Campbell: On the issue of individuals
and how they would feel about investigations like the Serious
Crime Review Team looking into cold case reviews, how do you feel
about that? Do you feel the same way as you have just explained?
Mrs Hunter: Yes. Joseph's was
a cold case review. I do think in all honesty there should be
an investigation into these cases. Okay, it is going to cost money
but it is satisfaction for the families. One way round it would
be to ask the families involved, "Has everything been done
for you and do you want a cold case review?". Some of them,
whose relatives were killed in the 1970s, might turn round and
say, "No, look: I want to let sleeping dogs lie", and
some of our families already say it. Others may turn round and
say, "Yes, we do, because it is the only way we will get
answers". It is really up to whoever is going to do the cold
case reviews to go along to the families. Do not wait for the
families to come to you. Go to the families and say, "We
are about to open your investigation. We want to do a cold case
review on it. How do you feel about that?", because it does
need the families' input. You have to ask the families questions
and they may not want that. My parents, my sisters and I all had
to sit down and talk to the police and tell them what we could
remember. Some families may not want that. They may not be up
to it mentally or physically, so you really should ask the families
what they want.
Q244 Mr Campbell: In your experience
with your group would individuals fall into those two categories,
some who do and some who do not?
Mrs Hunter: Yes, but it is individual;
it is what they want.
Q245 Mark Tami: Would you support a truth
commission for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Hunter: I could say immediately
no, but if I saw the evidence and I saw how the outcome for victims
was going to be, I might change my mind, if I saw that the victims
were going to be taken care of, counselled, supported. I remember,
right at the very beginning when we first started the group we
actually talked to a couple of South African gentlemen who were
involved in the South African truth and reconciliations. The first
question I asked them was, "I have sat and listened to everything
you had to say but how did you support the victims prior to the
investigation, during the investigation and afterwards?",
and he said, "We did not. We just sat them down, asked them
questions and sent them home". That cannot happen to the
victims of the troubles. If this is what government wants, and
it will go ahead I suppose. It has to be with the forethought
of the care of a human being.
Q246 Mark Tami: We tend to look at this
very much in terms of amnesties but if it was also from a position
that it was part of the criminal justice system, that you could
go to a prosecution from it, would that change your view?
Mrs Hunter: I would say a lot
of people who have been hurt by criminals would want prosecutions.
I know if I had the chance I would. I have no feelings whatsoever
for the people who killed Joseph, good, bad, ugly or indifferent,
but I would want them to do time because that is a just and right
thing to happen. As for truth and reconciliation, lot of things
in Northern Ireland start off with the victim but it always ends
up for the good of the perpetrator because it is easier and cheaper
to change the perpetrator than it is to support the victim.
Q247 Mark Tami: Who would you feel would
have the most to gain out of a truth commission?
Mrs Hunter: It should be the victim
but it probably would end up being the perpetrator.
Q248 Mr Pound: We are very grateful for
the way you are taking all these questions from us. In the present
political climate do you think that discussions on truth and reconciliation
could be divisive?
Mrs Hunter: Yes. I think it would
do a lot of harm at this minute in time. The victim sector has
only really been up and going for six years and I think it is
still very vulnerable.
Q249 Mr Pound: Do you think that perhaps
the story-telling could open old wounds? I was very intrigued
by what you said earlier on about people wanting to make a statement
but just the once.
Mrs Hunter: Yes. My father I looked
on, as I am sure all your daughters do, as a very strong man.
He is on the pencil of your life. I remember the very first time
the RTE were interviewing my daddy about Joseph's death. Up until
this point my mother always would have talked about my brother
but my father never did, and I said to him, "Daddy, do you
want to give this interview? They are particularly asking for
you", and daddy said, "Yes". It is very hurtful
for a daughter to sit and watch tears run down her father's face;
it really is hard. He did it once. He did it a second time and
that was not so bad, but when it came to the third time he was
asked to be interviewed he just said no. It was causing him too
much trauma and we had to help him. It is really individual again.
The victim sector you could lump together and say, "These
are victims and this is how a victim reacts", but they react
at different times. It is like a death. Even when you have been
blown up, you have been hurt or injured, that is death to the
normal life that you have led. Everything has to be in the person's
time, their way of going and when they need it. Sometimes as the
workers we have to look at a person and say, "It is time
this person got a bit of help" even though they do not know
it. It is the way we approach them and we say, "Come over
here and have a cup of tea and a wee chat". Through that
they may open up and say, "I do not feel so good today because
of such-and-such". It really is one-to-one work. I know there
are only five of us and there are 147 or 150 families in our group,
and we do not get round them all, so Nova help us a lot. If we
had the time, the money and the staff I would make sure we got
round every family.
Q250 Mr Pound: I do not want to press
you too much at this point, because it is very important what
you are saying, but would you agree that a victim-centred approach
to reconciliation can sometimes put an unbearable pressure on
the individual?
Mrs Hunter: Yes.
Q251 Mr Pound: And do you think that
applies in the case of individuals or do you think that there
is a generality there? Do you think it might put pressure on anybody
in that situation?
Mrs Hunter: If we want Northern
Ireland healed we have to heal the victims; we have to really
get them back on their feet to be able to walk on so, even though
it would put pressure on us, and I know what that pressure feels
like, in a lot of cases it is worth it. It is finding out which
of the victims will crumble under that pressure and which of the
victims will thrive. The stronger can carry the load and in that
way we can move forward and bring the weaker ones with us.
Q252 Mr Pound: So, reverting to your
South African example, do you feel that even when a victim is
under pressure the sort of support that you can provide will enable
that process to take place?
Mrs Hunter: Yes, because we can
carry them. We can hold their hand and work with them through
it.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed,
Mrs Hunter, for coming and answering our questions so clearly
and frankly. It has been a great help to us.
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