Examination of Witnesses (Questions 562-579)
MR TREVOR
RINGLAND AND
DR CHRIS
GIBSON OBE
22 FEBRUARY 2005
Q562 Chairman: Thank you very much for
coming to help us. Perhaps we can start with a simple question
which may be a very complex one. What is the main objective of
the One Small Step Campaign?
Mr Ringland: The main objective
is to try and promote a shared future in Northern Ireland, not
one where we end up working against each other but one where we
end up working together for our mutual benefit, saying to people
that it really is up to each and every one of us to play our role
in trying to create this and take personal responsibility in our
own lives to try to do something, no matter how small it is, to
reach out and build a relationship or contribute in some way towards
that objective of building a shared future. It is also about challenging
our leaders and saying, "It is for you to lead us to that
shared future that we all want". If we are going to do anything
that would be a tribute to the past and the tragedy and suffering
here, it is to try and ensure that it does not happen again. It
is also about highlighting a large group of people. On Monday
morning you may wake up to the radio in Belfast and listen to
Radio Ulster and hear about one petrol bomb that went through
one window in Northern Ireland. What you do not hear is that over
the weekend thousands of people were involved in mixing socially
in church, in sport, or in many other different ways, so it is
also about highlighting an awful lot of work that goes on here
that is not recognised and seen for what it is but is giving people
an opportunity for saying that these things are happening. It
is up to each one of us also to start contributing to that. If
everybody takes one small step it can make a difference. Part
of one of the steps was something that we helped to organised
at May Street Presbyterian Church which you may have been made
aware of. It really came out of a conversation where, as the Chairman
of One Small Step, I was invited to a Gaelic Association dinner
in Ballycastle. It was their centenary dinner. I am from a Unionist
background but also a sporting background, so I was invited to
it and I went to it and I ended up sitting beside a person called
Harry Boyle, who was one of the photographers there. I was talking
to Harry and his family. It was a very good evening. Harry told
me the story as I sat beside him where he said that his brother
had been killed during the Troubles, so I pressed him a bit further.
What happened was that Harry was 16 at the time and his elder
brother, as you have perhaps seen from the documentation, had
found a cache of weapons in a cemetery in Dunloy. He had told
his father. His father had then told the police and the police
had then told the army and the army had then staked it out. Harry's
brother, like any young fellow, had gone back to have another
look at the weapons and in doing that the army shot him. Harry
was 16. He had just lost his elder brother. As Harry then went
on, he told me how it had affected him and the fact that a lot
of people then started to work away at him. In many ways people
were saying to him, "Harry, we can help you do something
about this". He said he hated Unionists, he hated Protestants,
he hated the police, he hated the army and this hatred was building
up. His father recognised this and very wisely grabbed him before
he did anything too serious and sent him off to the United States.
Harry went to the United States, initially for two months but
stayed for eighteen months. It broke the cycle. Otherwise Harry
could well have been another statistic in Northern Ireland. I
just thought it was a very important story. May Street Presbyterian
Church had been trying to get involved in various work in the
community and the opportunity arose whereby they were interested
in putting something together as a church where they worked with
other churches that they already had links with on a cross-community
basis and a cross-religion basis. We put a night together when
people came and told their stories to an audience that was receptive
to them doing that. It was not about somebody telling the truth;
it was just a person telling their story and their version of
the truth. We had, I think, two of the most important stories
of the Troubles there. One was Harry's and the other was Alan
McBride who lost his wife in the Shankill bomb. Alan, as you may
or may not know, said, "I do not to detract from the actions
of the people who committed that act but what I also blame was
the current sectarian society that created their mindsets".
Chris was there that night as well and it brought home to me the
importance of people getting the opportunity to tell stories.
Harry had never told his story before and it was important to
him that people had heard that story about his hurt and his loss,
but at the same time everyone was learning from Harry telling
that story and we were all a lot wiser after that event. There
was also Michael McGoldrick whose son was shot dead by Loyalists
who told his story with grace and set an example to us all. There
was a very moving story by Sean Hughes, a policeman, who was shot
in 1970, spent three years in a coma and is still extremely disabled
and was just about able to tell his story. He spent another two
years coming out of the coma and is still in the home where he
has been since 1970 but yet told his story without any bitterness.
Sir Kenneth Bloomfield was there that night as well. It brought
out a lot of emotions in others.
Dr Gibson: I would echo what Trevor
has said. We live our lives through conversation. We are having
one this morning, although it is a bit one-sided.
Q563 Chairman: No; we have come to listen.
Dr Gibson: Listening is part of
that, is it not? We have seen it in action as Trevor has very
eloquently described. If people hear others' stories it is one
of the ways of alleviating their own pain but it also enlightens
the listener who may not have seen it from that angle at all.
It is part of the process of reconciliation that will need to
take place after the conflict that has been andI was about
to say gone but has not; it is still very much apparent. We need
means of communication to try to lower that. Conversation and
story telling are very Irish things. We believe that story telling
is one of the ways of doing that. I might just reflect back to
the commencement of One Small Step. Story telling is only one
part of that. The people who sat round the dinner table one night
talked about what we might do as individuals. It is an individualistic
exercise, each person in this place needs to take their own step
based upon their own experiences to try and bridge the gap, but
they cannot do that alone. Each of us was Chairman of an organisation.
I happen to be Chairman of the Civic Forum which is currently
in suspension but at that stage it was alive and active and that
was one of the objectives of the Civic Forum, to try to create
safe space, to have those discussions albeit, for only too short
a period. The idea of having a space in which those discussions
could take place was important. Each of us as Chairs of the Sports
Council, the Arts Council, the various voluntary organisations,
were the people around that table that night, and said, "We
could get that to happen in our organisations and if we all did
this through a network the impact on individuals would be quite
wide and it would create an atmosphere of dialogue and discussion
and if we could do that between people who maybe have not even
thought of talking to each other, never mind meeting each other
and having a serious discussion about real issues which impact
upon each of them and which are not considered to be safe to have,
then that would be a good thing to do". That was 18 months
to two years ago. That of course has developed into the movement.
It is not an organisation; it is a movement of individuals. There
is a media campaign which is currently running, costing some £120,000.
It will run for a month and will encourage people through the
medium of television and posters to think about this at an individual
level to take their own step.
Q564 Chairman: Who has funded that?
Dr Gibson: We have collected £120,000
together as a group. It has been done through the Community Relations
Council although we collected the money and we are doing it with
their assistance.
Q565 Chairman: Have you had any government
money?
Dr Gibson: We have, yes. We have
been to see the Secretary of State and he has generously supported
us. He told us we could not do it all with government money, that
we needed self-help too.
Q566 Mark Tami: You have talked about
story telling and the importance of that, but that is very much
dealing with the past. How do you think it is important to encourage
people to focus on the future and, if so, what can you do to help
or encourage that?
Dr Gibson: Taking One Small Step
is about taking it towards the future. Why would you do that?
Because, as Trevor said, it is about a shared future. That is
the only future to be seen in Northern Ireland, I believe. If
we live as two tribes, or maybe even more than that because other
people are coming to join us now from outside and we have got
a racist issue now to deal with as well, then this is not going
to be a happy, profitable or pleasant place to live in. It is
about a shared future.
Q567 Mark Tami: People will also have
a different view of the past.
Dr Gibson: Absolutely.
Q568 Mark Tami: How do you try to counter
that?
Mr Ringland: You do not adopt
the ostrich approach to it. There is an awful lot of tragedy out
there, an awful lot of hurt, and so you have to deal with it.
Some people in particular need an opportunity to at least express
to others what they have suffered. That can be done in a number
of ways but story telling is a very simple way and it is a way
of telling their story to a receptive audience and also getting
the opportunity to listen to others. There are people who are
victims and who are held back by their past but there are other
people who are driven forward by that past towards that shared
community. Which are you going to have as the driving force? Is
it those who are held back or those who are trying to say, "We
need to build a better future". If you listened to Alan McBride,
if you listen to Harry Boyle, if you listen to Michael McGoldrick
and if you even listen to Sean Hughes, what they are trying to
say is, "This is what happened to us but we want to build
a better future". When you listen to Donna McGillian, who
was at the launch of One Small Step, she sustained serious injury
in the Omagh bomb. You might remember her. She is badly scarred
and her husband Gary was very badly injured as well. Donna describes
herself as a survivor, not a victim. There is an awful lot of
hurt out there and people will find their own level of how they
deal with it. Some people might take time to come to that and
some people might not want to deal with it. You are not asking
them to get involved in reconciliation. You are not saying, "You
have to sign up to reconciliation".
Q569 Mark Tami: Should reconciliation
be victim centred?
Dr Gibson: No. A lot of things
need reconciling here other than about victims. Victimhood is
a badge that people wear and it is a terribly comfortable badge
to wear. That we have to get across, that that dialogue needs
to take place where people feel that they are fitting in. I can
see that happening to the people that Trevor spoke about. They
were able to tell their story and there were people in the audience
who went up to them afterwards who would not otherwise have done
it and that surely is building the future. What would scare me
rigid, and I can say this with a lawyer sitting beside me, would
be to have a legalistic, forum-based set piece drama that people
could come in and out of and grandstand it. That is not reconciliation.
Quiet conversations between people who can open up and say what
they really think in their innermost selves
Q570 Mark Tami: So you would not see
a formal structure?
Dr Gibson: No, but that is a personal
view.
Q571 Chairman: Would you share that,
Mr Ringland?
Mr Ringland: Yes, I would not
advise to a formal structure but what I would agree to is a template
where you set down certain criteria that have to be met in any
meetings that take place, that there has to be a cross-community
element to it in the meetings.
Q572 Mark Tami: Would that process not
just be based on those who have suffered or the perpetrators but
on the whole of Northern Ireland society? Would you see it as
wide as that?
Mr Ringland: I think you set up
the template and you create a number of situations where examples
of it are given and then I think it will find its own life to
some extent.
Dr Gibson: Sectarianism is just
as objectionable whether it is somebody with a bottle in their
hand standing in the road fighting a neighbour or even the next
street or somebody in a polite drawing room up the Malone Road,
which is the classy bit. We need to create a dialogue in all those
circumstances where people start to say, "Do I really need
that? Is that a good way to go forward?". I take your point:
it is about a going forward position, not a going backwards position.
I come from a business background and you could never exist, never
mind make money, if you were always thinking about the past.
Q573 Chairman: A number of people have
said to us during the course of this inquiry that there would
be no point in having even informal groups if all of the perpetrators
did not take part, which means all the paramilitaries and, some
would say, also the organs of the British state. Do you have a
view about that?
Mr Ringland: I doubt if you will
ever be able to create a structure whereby you will get everybody
to come together and tell the truth. It will never happen. I think
that is why you have to look at what it is people want and find
some way where people can say to others what has happened to them
and them tell the story. One of the problems is that there are
a number of high profile inquiries and there is a feeling out
there by an awful lot of other people that what happened to them
has been ignored. It is as important as the high profile inquiries
but there is a lack of attention there. To a lawyer truth is a
very difficult concept. Justice is something that is down to evidence
and even then it can be a very difficult concept. Reconciliation
is something for the individual. I cannot say to somebody, "You
should reconcile yourself with your neighbour who has done something
terrible to you". It is for them to find it in themselves.
You will never get an inclusive inquiry which involves everybody.
There are those who will try and ensure that it does not happen.
They might say they want it to happen but the last thing they
want is a forum in any shape or form. If we want to try and ensure
that we do not repeat the last 30 years we also have to learn
from the past. One of the problems we have now is that our children
do not understand what went on in the past and they do not have
a way of getting that information. You can see warning signs starting
to appear where we are in danger of repeating the past, which
is very sad.
Q574 Mr Luke: Thank you for explaining
the circumstances surrounding the May Street event. Are you intending
to repeat that? The Scots, like the Irish, are great story tellers.
At the end of the day some people expect instant healing out of
story telling and you do not always get that. What steps do you
think we should take next?
Mr Ringland: Are we going to repeat
it? As a group we are not going to repeat it because that is not
what we are about. We are looking for and encouraging others to
repeat it in their own environment, and there are a number of
groups who are doing that and have been doing it in the past.
Q575 Mr Luke: Obviously, we have a big
inquiry on which we will not get through before the general election.
We are looking at the whole issue of peace and reconciliation
and we have only got a short time to go on with this but we really
want to know what other steps you think would be the initial stages
along that road.
Mr Ringland: A lot of work has
already been done on this, whether it be elsewhere or her, as
to how best to create a story telling forum. The key thing to
all of that work is that you make it happen. We can put it out
to consultation, we can draw up all sorts of proposals but the
key thing is that the template is already there. It has been worked
on by a lot of people but what it needs is for somebody to say,
"This has to happen". That could be done very quickly.
It could be done using a relatively small number of people to
fine-tune it and make sure it is effective, and it can then be
put out in its package and launched as something which people
can take up and use in their own particular circumstances, whether
it be in churches or in community groups or whatever. The key
thing is that if somebody says, "Yes, let us do this, let
us draw it up", it can be very quickly done by a relatively
small group of people which is probably the best way to do it.
It does not need to go out to consultation because it has all
been looked at before.
Dr Gibson: It is about a template
of best practice. It is about doing it in a universal way, not
as a set piece. I had not intended saying this but I will say
it. My name is Gibson. My cousin, Lord Justice Gibson, and his
wife Cecily were blown apart on the border. I am, if you like,
the second division of the family. They are not my direct family.
There have been dialogues about investigating that particular
incident and you will be well aware of what the family's views
were on that. I do not think from my perspective from inside the
family that it would help our grieving process one iota to open
that up. We are a robust family and have come to terms with that
ourselves in our own way. That is one set of individuals' perspective
on it. To quote the Chairman, it is not necessary for everyone
to have that opportunity. Loads of people have the capacity to
deal with that in their own way and I think that should be respected
and allowed for. That is not to say that we should not form a
basis for others who need another process to tackle that, which
is why I think you need a very wide spanning set of profiles,
set of practices and set of methodologies which many people can
adopt which gets support in a way that allows that to spiral itself
out and you do not try to design this monstrosity and set it up
and dictate to everyone how they will come in and out of it, because,
I tell you, the grandstanding will have to be seen to be believed.
Q576 Chairman: That is one of the reasons
we are doing this. If one were to go down that road or something
approaching it, how can the government help? Do you think this
is something which should be done quite separately from anything
to do with national or local government? Should we get it back
again or do you think there is an input aside from money?
Dr Gibson: That is my money as
a taxpayer.
Q577 Chairman: Let us take that as a
given.
Dr Gibson: Leadership is also
one of the prerogatives of political figures. The shared future
is something that I believe any administration here, be it a ruled
administration or an Assembly-based administration and governance,
ought to promote. We cannot have any government of any shape or
form promoting anything other than a shared future on a basis
that everyone can participate in. That has been clear to us from
1998 with a document which everyone worked hard for, called the
Good Friday Agreement, which forms the basis, as I understand
it, for the current government's main thrust and I believe should
form any administration's basis. That is not to say we cannot
re-interpret it, we cannot ensure that we get best practice involved.
To me the shared future is the only basis for it but we could
see more proactive promotion of that by the agencies of the state.
Mr Ringland: And keep politicians
out.
Dr Gibson: We need you for legislative
purposes, not otherwise.
Q578 Mr Pound: Most of us know the campaign
Living Life Without Barriers. For the record can you either give
us a synopsis of the aims and some indication of the response
you have had or, if you prefer, let us have a report if you are
doing an analysis of it?
Mr Ringland: There will be an
analysis done at the end of it so we will be prepared to share
that with you once it has been done. It is early days yet.
Q579 Mr Pound: What is the preliminary
feeling?
Mr Ringland: The preliminary feeling
is that the profile is getting greater. People are starting to
understand what the concept is about. It is very difficult to
know what impact you are having. What you are saying to people
is that it is about getting on with your neighbour. There is a
political crisis here but there is not a crisis on the streets.
It used to be that if there was a political crisis there was a
crisis on the streets. People are gradually coming to terms with
things. Relationships are changing on this island east-west as
well as north-south. We are starting to rediscover things that
we had forgotten about. I was at the West Belfast Festival where
I was invited to listen to a discussion with Geoffrey Donaldson
in a question-time scenario, and there was maturity of debate
in that people were prepared to sit and listen but there was also
a threat in that the PSNI had to be there and, when the organisers
stood up and apologised for the PSNI being in the room because
they had to be there, out of 800-odd people one person walked
out and the rest accepted it. You can see things happening in
society. What we do need is leadership and to know where the leadership
in our society is taking us. That is at many different levelspoliticians,
churches, community group leaders. We have had councils signing
up to support One Small Step, and that has been the whole council
right across the political spectrum. As to what impact we are
having in our campaign, we are doing an evaluation on it but it
is raising its profile and people are understanding what it is
about.
|