Examination of Witnesses (Questions 880-889)
RT HON
PAUL MURPHY
MP, ANGELA SMITH
MP, MR MARK
SWEENEY AND
MR JOHN
CLARKE
9 MARCH 2005
Q880 Mr Campbell: I suppose what I am
saying, Secretary of State, is how are you going to avoid those
people feeling a sense of frustration and anger and isolation
a second time if they felt like that—and they did, many
of them—in 1998, and now we are opening up the prospect
of them seeing some form of closure and they go along with the
process, even though they felt the way did seven years ago, and
new evidence is forthcoming in a case or cases and the perpetrator
is identified—
Mr Murphy: But is let off under
the terms of the Belfast Agreement?
Q881 Mr Campbell: Yes. With all of those
feelings of anger and frustration that they felt seven years ago,
how would you prevent them feeling that sense of injustice a second
time?
Mr Murphy: Because they would
face trial but, of course, the sentence would be different because
of the law as it now stands.
Q882 Mr Campbell: In that they would
not get one?
Mr Murphy: I do not think we can
do much about that, to be perfectly honest. The law is there in
terms of the release of prisoners under that scheme, but at least
people would know that they have been properly tried and convicted
of the crime which they committed. Obviously, some families might
be concerned about whether the sentence was appropriate, but I
do not think there is an awful lot you can do about that.
Q883 Mr Campbell: But do you accept that
some people might feel that, far from the process being moved
on, it might re-open old wounds that were beginning to heal?
Mr Murphy: It is up to the family.
If the family thought that by having the trial and a conviction
that would bring closure for that family as opposed to having
nothing at all, that is the choice to be made, it strikes me.
Q884 Mr Clarke: Colleagues will have
been reading of the case of Anne Service who is still trying to
get justice for the murder of her son Brian, who was murdered
by the UDA six years ago, at a time when we are asking those responsible
for killing Robert McCartney to come forward, and we have evidence
as to the names of those but not evidence that can at the moment
secure a conviction. How can we answer criticisms by people such
as Anne Service that we spend a lot of money on cold cases pre-1998
and yet we are not in a position to bring to justice those who
carried out crimes such as the murder of Brian Service six years
ago when we know who was responsible but we cannot get the community
to give evidence?
Mr Sweeney: Can I just answer
on the case of it having happened since 1998 in the sense that
the PSNI already have a Serious Crime Review Team and what they
do is review cases like that where there has not been the possibility
of a prosecution or even charges being brought. The injection
of resources to deal with cases between 1969 and the date of the
Belfast Agreement does not mean that the team will lose its capacity
to review those things. The Chief Constable continues to have
that capacity. I do not know the detail of the case that you are
asking about but the opportunity ought to exist. As to the question
of intimidation of witnesses, that is a separate issue.
Q885 Reverend Smyth: One of the difficulties
is the question of evidence if you have court cases. One issue
I was a bit concerned about, Secretary of State, because I heard
it on the floor of the House from the Prime Minister today and
you repeated the phrase, was that that would be the responsibility
of the Chief Constable, to arrest people.
Mr Murphy: Yes.
Reverend Smyth: But the interesting thing,
of course, is that if the Chief Constable is not doing his job
it is the responsibility of ministers, like the Home Secretary
did, to demand the resignation of that Chief Constable. It is
the degree of accountability that has been causing concern.
Q886 Mark Tami: Secretary of State, Minister,
when we have taken evidence a number of witnesses have raised
what they see as a growing culture of victimhood in that the majority
of people see themselves as victims but few people are prepared
to see themselves as perpetrators. What is your view on that?
Are you concerned about that and, if you are, what do we need
to do to get some balance in that people do accept that they are
part of it and have caused suffering to others?
Mr Murphy: It is a very real problem
in Northern Ireland and goes to the heart of the Troubles. One
of the reasons why we have to be very sensitive about the dealing
with the past issue is precisely that people have different views
on who are perpetrators and who are victims. Sometimes, when you
look, for example, at Lost Lives, a book that David McKittrick
and others have written, they simply name people who died, but
to go beyond sometimes can be very difficult. The trick in terms
of the general policy is I think to go back to this consensual
approach to see whether we can get a consensus on how we define
a victim, and that is easier said than done. That is in terms
of the dealing with the past issue.
Q887 Mark Tami: Just on that particular
point, I have been struck by the number of people, although not
all of them, it has to be said, who have found great difficulty
in accepting that, for instance, prisoners were victims rather
than those who had killed or maimed their family member.
Mr Murphy: It is a fundamental
interpretation of what happened over 30 years and there are big
differences. Some people in Northern Ireland regard the armed
forces and the police as enemies, whereas others see them as organs
of the state. How you reconcile two such terribly conflicting
views is very difficult indeed. At the end of the day though what
we have to look at is the families who are left behind and how
you deal with those people. They are human beings, all of them,
and it can be a very sensitive thing to deal with.
Angela Smith: Just taking up the
victimhood part of your question, what we would seek to do is
allow people to move on. I would never say to somebody, "Put
the past behind you" because the degree of suffering that
some people have endured is too great for that and it will always
be a part of them. A lot of the work that we do with victims and
survivors is putting emphasis on how they will live their lives
in the future in terms of training regarding jobs, in terms of
confidence-building and in terms of counselling that allows them
to cope with some of the things they have to deal with that bring
it back to them. A lot of work goes on around confidence and self-esteem.
That in itself helps. A lot of people who are victims and survivors
are unemployed and that is where the confidence and self-esteem
issues have come in particularly, to allow them to go back into
employment.
Q888 Reverend Smyth: Thank you very much,
Secretary of State and Minister. We appreciate your answers. Are
there any points that you want to leave with us?
Mr Murphy: I think we have covered
all of this. It is a very interesting subject which everybody
in this room has a deep sympathy for. Of course, there are different
views on how you come to the same conclusions but I think everybody
does come to the conclusion that we have to work as hard as we
can to help victims and survivors in Northern Ireland.
Q889 Reverend Smyth: I appreciate that
because I am ending my term in Parliament, God willing, and we
have not yet had the person responsible for the murder of my predecessor
brought to justice.
Mr Murphy: Absolutely. Thank you
very much indeed and we wish you well in your retirement.
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