Examination of Witnesses (Questions 410
- 419)
TUESDAY 1 MARCH 2005
RT HON
JOHN SPELLAR,
MRS DOREEN
BROWN, MR
ROBIN MCMINNIS
AND MR
HARRY BAIRD
Q410 Chairman: Minister, thank you
and your team for being with us this morning. We appreciate the
difficulties we have caused in terms of bringing people across
to Belfast to give evidence. I understand you are on a tight schedule,
we are on a tight schedule, so I have suggested to my colleagues
that we ask short questions that are to the point, but hopefully
questions that enable us to get out all of the evidence that we
wish to. I wonder if I could start straightaway by asking you
to pass comment on the situation with regard to the Belfast Airports?
The White Paper says that both airports in Belfast can co-exist,
that they can complement each other rather than be competitors,
and yet we have heard evidence from Belfast International that
it "believes that [the] other existing airports could close
with minimal short term economic impact", and certainly Belfast
International would hold the view that one airport for Northern
Ireland is a good idea rather than three. What are your views
on their view against that that exists in the White Paper?
Mr Spellar: I am not sure that
I should admit to previous convictions in terms of the White Paper,
having had a hand in the writing of it. As we indicated in the
White Paper, there is considerable scope for both Belfast City
and Belfast International Airport. Belfast City as we know is
actually pressing up against its limit and is obviously, therefore,
meeting a demand and the interests of customers and the wishes
of customers obviously have a significant role in this. At the
same time demand is also rising at Belfast International, which
also has the significant advantage of being a 24 hour airport,
and also the geographic location is in a position—I know
they have some concerns on this—to actually draw in traffic
from the Republic of Ireland as well with route development especially.
Unfortunately, yesterday, I had to be across in Westminster but
I was due to be with the Irish Transport Minister, cutting the
first sod on the final stage of the motorway dual carriageway
between Belfast and Dublin; there may be some concerns that that
may enhance the attractions of Dublin, but that road runs in both
directions and there is considerable scope there as well. Frankly,
we go along with the Department for Transport White Paper that
there is scope for both airports, both of which play a role.
Q411 Chairman: I suggest that you
may have been listening to our last evidence session where we
in fact said that the road does go both ways and called for marketing
more effectively of the services from Belfast International.
Mr Spellar: Also, I accept, there
is scope for doing some work on the route between the motorway
and the airport as well, I fully accept that we need to be looking
at that aspect too. There is scope, however, for actually digging
into much of that traffic in the Republic of Ireland.
Q412 Chairman: The White Paper is
sufficient enough, we do not need an overall Air Transport Strategy
which has been called for by some; do you think that is covered
within the White Paper?
Mr Spellar: Yes. The idea of a
strategy in this particular regard—and I fully accept I
am possibly echoing points that have been put to you—in
the way you are putting it is that somehow with two private enterprise
operators operating in the market, and also I accept with one
public sector operator, the City of Derry Airport, we should adjudicate
between those airports as to which should stay open and which
should close. That is very different, I have to say, from saying
where expansion should take place, and in all of that context
I think that is quite well-recognised by the White Paper. We need
to look at where customers want to fly to and from, and for some
customers International is quite convenient with parking, access
to the west of Northern Ireland, later flights and so on. For
those who are doing business, particularly with Government or
indeed in Belfast city centre, then City is a more attractive
prospect. Obviously there is overlapping, but in a way they are
separate markets and I certainly do not think it would be the
role of Government to adjudicate between one airport and the other
in that context, let alone, I would argue, the public expenditure
consequences of such a decision, unless of course International
was proposing to buy out City or whatever.
Q413 Chairman: You pre-empt my next
question because of course you will know that in 1995 International
did indeed attempt to purchase City Airport, but that at the time
was adjudged by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission to be against
the public interest. Were the International Airport to make a
similar bid today, do you think there would still be public interest
issues?
Mr Spellar: Partly that would
obviously have to be for the Office of Fair Trading to make such
a decision. We would obviously have to review such an application
and make a decision at the time. I merely point out that we are
trying to actually make Northern Ireland an attractive destination
in a variety of ways—in many ways quite successfully. I
mean, Tourism Ireland has had a significant impact, something
like two million visitors came to Northern Ireland, Belfast is
now about the fourth most visited destination for tourists in
the United Kingdom, there are big developments, as you may have
seen last night, in the city centre, with Victoria Square and
others which again I was announcing only yesterday moving forward
with international developers. So there is all of this and therefore
I think we need to look at the range of travel services, accepting
the slightly geographically peripheral nature of Northern Ireland,
that will in fact attract the widest number of tourist visitors
but will also be of attraction and interest to inward investment
and general business interests anyway.
Q414 Chairman: We appreciate very
much, of course, that planning is the responsibility of your colleague
Angela Smith, but we also recognise that in respect of the Planning
Agreement on Belfast City it touches over into your responsibilities.
We now know that the consultation period on that agreement is
over, but we understand that Belfast International has been granted
leave to seek judicial review. Some might judge that as a further
delay, as a way that Belfast International can affect its competitor
unfairly. Do you have a view on the Planning Agreement and/or
the judicial review that has been allowed?
Mr Spellar: It is really, as you
rightly indicated, the responsibility of Angela Smith and the
Department of Environment, Planning Service to adjudicate on that,
and I think it would probably be imprudent of me to intrude into
their domain in that regard. As you will know, the White Paper
invited the Northern Ireland authorities to review the form of
the Planning Agreement, and obviously to take into account the
views of local residents because as you will see as you come into
Belfast City it does lie quite close to residential developments,
and that is the reason why not only is there the overall limit
on air movements but also a limit on the number of seats for sale,
which is getting close to the maximum. We would hope that these
matters could be decided fairly shortly and that the judicial
review will not delay that unduly; I think that is important,
not just for Belfast City but also for Belfast International as
well because both airports need to know the regulatory environment
within which they will be operating.
Q415 Chairman: You have just mentioned
the restrictions on numbers of aircraft. The Department for Transport
described as "difficult to understand" the restrictions
on seats for sale. Is this a sentiment that you would share?
Mr Spellar: I think it was an
understanding come to at the time as a method of constraining
the volume of traffic going through, and it may be that a number
of planes with larger capacity may put greater pressure on that,
and I would hope therefore that those would be considerations
that would be taken into account by DoE in their review of the
planning limits.
Q416 Chairman: Thank you for that.
Officials tell us that the relevant Minister Angela Smith will
be "taking stock" in February; are we then to expect
that a decision and/or a statement is imminent?
Mr Spellar: I have not had any
immediate notification, I pass the ball to one of the officials
who will maybe be able to give you further enlightenment.
Mr Baird: We have indicated in
our evidence, chairman, that the Minister would be getting a further
as it were options paper before the end of February and would
be taking a decision then on how best to take the rest of the
review forward. Since that of course there has been the judicial
review, and we are not sure yet if that will delay, as it were,
taking a decision on those options, but we are continuing to work
on the review as we prepare for the judicial review.
Q417 Chairman: I am conscious that
I am not exactly the planners' friend at the moment, having criticised
them on waste management and on housing recently, but I do hope
that we can expect a quick decision, I believe it would be in
everybody's interest if cards were on the table and people know
where we stand as soon as possible.
Mr Spellar: I think Ministers
will be interested to see the report which may be useful guidance
to us.
Chairman: Thank you, Minister. Gregory
Campbell.
Q418 Mr Campbell: Moving north west,
Minister, to the City of Derry Airport, there have been optimistic
forecasts for growth there and as you probably know the throughput
there is roughly at about 250,000 at the moment. How important
do you rate that airport and its future to business and tourism
for the North West?
Mr Spellar: We regard City of
Derry Airport as significant for the North West as a whole, and
that includes both sides of the border, which is why of course
there has been active discussion between our officials and the
officials of the Department of the Irish Republic as to support
for the City of Derry Airport, and I anticipate that this may
well form a subject of discussion in tomorrow's British-Irish
inter-Governmental conference which we are holding in Dublin,
as a normal scheduled meeting. Looking at City of Derry Airport
within the context of the North West of the island, that actually
shows quite a sizeable hinterland for the airport and therefore
the importance in maintaining connections to elsewhere in Ireland,
but of course very much also into the United Kingdom, and that
is obviously a significant factor in our considerations of support
for development of the airport.
Q419 Mr Campbell: Would that be significant
enough to impact on the decision regarding the financing of the
extension of the airport?
Mr Spellar: That is clearly part
of those discussions, not only our internal review of the situation
and evaluation of the scheme, but the involvement of the Republic
of Ireland who, as you are aware, previously have also had a financial
involvement. At the same time we are also looking at the governance
of City of Derry airport which is obviously an important factor
as well. We believe that a more commercial structure rather than
a local government structure is an important aid to success for
that airport.
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